What They Don't Want to Hear: Melony Sebastian on Window Bids

ALEX
Hi, I know we've been talking for over an hour already, but now that we're recording a podcast, Melony Sebastian, thank you for coming.

MELONY
Thank you for having me.

ALEX
Yeah, this is round two, admittedly, and for probably everyone's best, or luckily for all my clients, I'm better at building than recording video or recording podcasts. So we tried this before, I messed it up, my apologies, thank you for doing it again. Instead of me trying to introduce who you are, what you do, why don't you go for it?

MELONY
Okay. I'm Melony Sebastian, and I am the director of sales and business development at Signature Windows and Doors. I've been there for six years. My background is not windows and doors. My background is high-end custom fabrication, and that translates to weddings and events. I used to do a lot of high-end weddings and events in Vail and Beaver Creek and Aspen. One of the best events that I worked on, high level was Audi ski championships and converting Matsuhisa in Vail into a private Audi lounge.

ALEX
That was probably fun.

MELONY
It was really cool. So yeah, just worked in that field of creating custom items and ended up in windows and doors, and it's been working out.

ALEX
Nice. We've talked about this in the past, that there's a lot of similarities between windows, doors, construction, clientele, things like that, and your past experience, which I always just think is amazing. And I become a little bit better at business the more I'm able to connect these unrelated things in ways that just remind you that business is about relationships, business is about people. How would you say that that past experience translates to what you guys do now?

MELONY
The way that it translates the most is that you're creating something special for someone's life. And so whether it's a wedding or an anniversary celebration, they most likely have not done this type of project before, and so you are leading them through the project and you're educating them about how things work, and they really rely on you. There's a lot of trust there, and they're handing over a fair sum of money as well. And the custom home building process is super similar. It's something that's going to be super meaningful to these people and they're investing a lot, and it is emotional. And that's something to really kind of grapple with, is how to delicately handle the reality of that and then the reality of construction or the reality of event production. It's messy, it's stressful, it doesn't go according to plan ever, and so just making sure that you find a way to kind of get the client through that without them freaking out.

ALEX
Interestingly, that's, I think, a really good segue, because oftentimes in these episodes that I record, the ones that I find go best, well, one of two categories. Either I have an existing relationship with somebody, that makes obviously the conversation easier. But the other one is when people kind of come with something they want to talk about. And I know that you and I had talked briefly just about what that was, and just this concept of communication. And when I hear everything that you just said, it's that, how do you, I think of that pillar in the ups and downs of a process. The one thing that has to stay constant as a deliverable is communication. That's going to be the biggest indicator of an outcome, more so than whether or not there are ups and downs. It's how we communicate them. And I'd have to imagine that dealing with somebody on their wedding day or something like that is such a different experience, but yet the same as dealing with somebody when purchasing a window package, having it installed, and their life investment. I'd be fascinated to hear if you think I'm off base on that or not.

MELONY
No, I think you're right on the money. What's similar about both of these areas is that you're creating something from nothing. You don't have a tangible item to show them, like, this is exactly what it's going to be. Today, we have more ways of doing that with rendering, and that's great. But there are people that I'm sure that you've worked with who are very, I mean, that's kindly, incapable of imagining things. They need it to be in front of them. And so you're asking them to trust you. And you're also asking them to trust that you understand their vision, which is also an intangible item. And so when someone said, I expected to walk into the ballroom today and it looked like what I explained to you, I have to make sure that I understand what they wanted so that it does magically look like that. But you're creating that from nothing and putting together, if it's pipe and drape and chandeliers and chairs and linens and all of these things, to collectively create that vision. It's the same thing with a house. And I would say anyone in the trades doing this kind of work is an artist or is a creator, because you're manifesting something that didn't exist.

ALEX
I know something that I struggle with is that you inherently are going to have to tell people what they don't want to hear. And I think, within this industry, you're going to have to do that. And I think the lowest hanging fruit one is a lot of times the cost objection. This would be the easiest job in the world if somebody just got to come to me with their dream project and I go, oh, you know what, it's actually going to cost less than you thought it was going to. Everyone's going to be like, wow, this is amazing, why isn't everyone just building their dream home? Odds are it's going to cost more than you want it to, it's going to take longer than you want it to, and it's going to be more stressful than you want it to. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it either. You just need to be aware of those things. I think that when I've seen peers of mine struggle, it's in the ability to communicate things that people don't want to hear. When I've looked in retrospect towards areas that I've not been super happy with outcomes or relationships, I can almost always pin it back to just not being the best at telling people what they don't want to hear, despite it being the right thing to say. And a little bit of my concept on how to approach this right now is actually through marketing. I want to market a brand that allows for somebody, when they hire me, knowing that when I am telling them what they don't want to hear, that is me doing the job they hired me for. It's a harder thing than just that in itself. But when you guys are coming back, window packages are very easily one of the biggest line items on a project. I'm sure you rarely ever hear, wow, that was way less expensive than we hoped it was going to be. Where have the successes been, and how that's communicated in terms of value propositions, how to handle it? Where have the shortcomings been? Because I think that we could all learn from each other in how to communicate these things in a way of actually advocating for the client.

MELONY
We have to have that conversation, I would say, on every project. And no, I don't think I've ever heard that this is the best price I've ever seen and I can't wait. We really start the conversation with, we're not going to be the lowest option that you're going to look at. However, there's a reason for that. It's not just because we feel like putting a higher price tag on the package. It's because of what comes with it. And what we differentiate ourselves on is our infrastructure, our facilities, our showrooms, our staff, and then most importantly, our 20 full-time installers. And when you decide to invest in trucks and to invest in benefits and have all of those things to produce a really good product, you have a cost. And I think that what we've seen in the industry recently are a lot of people who are coming in with great window options and they don't have infrastructure and they can offer a lower cost. The thing that you have to talk through with the customer is, if something goes wrong, are you comfortable with the fact that they don't have a warehouse? Are you comfortable with the fact that they don't have a service team? That the manufacturer is in a different country and you've got to hopefully count on them being helpful when something inevitably happens? Like you were saying, glass is going to break. It's not fun. And we actually tailor our sales around that fact and say upfront, are you really dialed into this desire for the most clarity of glass, and therefore you want European glass? Okay, great. If the glass breaks and if there's a problem, we have to get that on a shipping container at some point. And that's going to be costly. If we do domestic glass, yes, it might have a little bit less clarity, but it's going to be much easier to get the problem fixed. And people get to choose what's important to them.

ALEX
To me, having those options laid out, just like that, the awareness, the agency that that provides, that's an intangible. That's the value add, I can say. Of course, I'm in the sales algorithms on social media and stuff. I just saw something that I think outlines exactly what you said. It was dealing with somebody that has a price objection. So I think the scenario that this guy was talking about was you have somebody else that's 3% cheaper than you. He then says, your response should be, well, if we were 3% less, would you go with us? And the person then inevitably says yes. He's like, well, why would you go with us? And so that list you just gave off would be the inherent, because you have a warehouse, because you have domestic glass, because you have vendor relationships, you have an install team in-house. And you go, wait, that stuff's not worth 3% to you? So we're good here. And just hearing you outline all those things really made me think of that reel. I think he's like a sales specialist or something like that.

MELONY
You'll have to share.

ALEX
I'll send it to you. Yeah. Because it's like, oh, that is worth 3%.

MELONY
Totally.

ALEX
Totally. The other part of this, I think, is we deal with each other within the industry. And I think that takes a certain tone, because of the nature of it. But then we're dealing with clients. And they're two different conversations in a way. It's not always the easiest for me personally to navigate. And I think that Signature Windows is one of the few vendors that is also client-facing, for my company at least, where I will bring my clients in to actually speak with you. In your experience, talking to a client versus talking to repeat builders, let's say, how are those conversations different? Where are the pitfalls in those conversations or the methods of communication?

MELONY
Right. Yeah. If we're speaking to each other, or you're speaking to Luke, who is your sales consultant, you guys have a rapport, you have a common language. So it can move swiftly because of that. When you have a homeowner come into the showroom, perhaps they've never built a custom home before, and they probably haven't been introduced to a lot of window jargon, like the jamb depth or a simulated divided light or the reveal, all of these things. And you don't want to come off jargony. Yes, it's great that we know technical information, but if it's not understandable to the customer, then it's not really helpful. So it's trying to connect with them and really getting away from the jargon, and more so the lived experience is what we always talk about. So how do you see yourself living with this product? And I would say scenic doors are one of those inflection points where you really need to have a very thoughtful conversation. So for instance, if it's a couple that is building a home that they plan to age in place, they need to think about, okay, you've got very heavy door panels with this multi-slide that leads out to a gorgeous patio and is just this really cool indoor-outdoor space. Well, how are you going to operate those as time goes on? Does it need to be motorized, because you don't want to have to deal with operating force to get the panels going? And just trying to have those types of conversations so that when someone lives with it, they're happy. And I think that if you get disconnected from that, we do have situations with builders where the product is installed and the homeowners are walking the project and realizing, yeah, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. I don't know how this is going to be functional. We need to change something. And that's a cost for the builder. It's a cost for the homeowner. It's a cost for us. And the more upfront we can have those types of thoughtful conversations, the better.

ALEX
Would you say, I mean, every client's different to some extent, but speaking in generalities, do you think it's a value add for most clients to go through the details of things that you said, like reveals, SDLs and things?

MELONY
No. Yeah, there's a fine balance of asking the, how are you going to live with it, versus details that are just, I mean, decision fatigue. And I'm sure that that's a huge thing that you try to protect your customers from, or homeowners from, is I don't want to put so many things in front of you that you just get exhausted by the whole process.

ALEX
I think something I'll always be working on is that I'm not saying that building a house is always going to be fun at every moment, but there should be enjoyable in some way. It's going to be hard, not trying to blow smoke in that false direction, but there should also be enjoyable moments. And I think that in the past, one of the ways I've tried to demonstrate value was by, I'm this organized, look at all this detail I can provide. I thought that I was almost an anomaly in that. Looking back, I think that was a mistake. I think that what I should have more so been focusing on is establishing a method of trust, in that getting somebody towards something that is a consumable. Like you said, what do you want this to live like? Somebody can trust that or have it communicated to them that they understand, that the rest of it becomes a stressor for them. I also think that that's the same shortcoming I've had in, maybe disagreements isn't the best word, but difficult moments, because then I take that same detailed approach as the, no, look at, I did this, I did that, I did this, I did that. I'm not wrong. You're wrong. Or this is not a problem because I did this X, Y, and Z. I don't think that oftentimes has a good outcome either. It takes the personability out of it. In the sales process, and I hate to use the word sales, but that's what we're all in to some extent, how do you guys measure that on a barometer? Is it just builder by builder, architect by architect, or does each salesperson kind of have their own approach?

MELONY
With the being detailed?

ALEX
Yeah.

MELONY
Okay. I mean, I want to go to what you were saying a second ago about, no, you're wrong, here are the details that back up why. And I have a recent example where it came to light that a relationship with a builder was not in a great place, and it took some talking, and it took about an hour-long conversation to pinpoint that there was an instance a few years ago where we pointed out a technical detail that they were trying to work out and get to a solution. We just pointed out the problem and that we had done everything right. And yeah, that's true. Is it helpful? And I think because we're technical people, we get excited about the ability to point out, this is what the specification says, this is the exact dimension of what this is supposed to be, and it's to code, and I'm not going to diverge from that. That's not really a human conversation. And what that led to is a lack of cooperation and business between the two companies, despite both companies wanting to do more business together. And so the being right and the technical conversations, those are hard to navigate. And I know that our sales consultants struggle when we get a set of plans that there's a way to accomplish the design intent in a different way that actually would be value engineering for the project. And there's this hesitation to have that conversation with an architect, because you never know, are they going to find that to be offensive? Are they going to be open to it? Or the why. I think one of the biggest ways that I try to support the sales team is pushing them to ask the why the design is the way it is. And sometimes we find that there isn't exactly a reason. It just, that's how it was drawn. And then we say, well, actually, we have a solution that could save money and it could be more energy efficient, and all the other things we could say. And we then have a value add to the customer. It's just being brave to have those conversations.

ALEX
I think in today's day and age, keeping it personable is way harder. We're in my office right now, and the reality is that 75, 80 percent of my week is spent in this office firing off emails, looking at technical documents and things like that. But it's so easy for me. Here's my real world example, thinking of that, that just, I dealt with it this morning. We use a lot of forms to stay organized. And it's more so, a lot of those forms are actually just meant for internal use, frankly. Say there's something that develops on site where we need to put it through a change order process. We also have a form that's called a field change request. It's meant to solve, say we're walking around and you go, hey, can we move this out at one inch over this way, one inch over that way? Can we fur out this wall another inch to make this shower niche a little bit deeper? Of course, we can do all these things. Probably going to be a small variance in cost. Client, so we just want them to sign, though, that, hey, do this work. We are telling you to make this scope change. Client sees the form. They hadn't seen the form before. They thought we were trying to kind of get them to sign something under, not pressure, but just like they didn't feel comfortable. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, what could you possibly have against this? And I saw myself typing up this email. I was like, this is just, this is me sending a formal response back to a form that is meant to just be a personable, in-the-moment conversation, being like, yes, Fernhill team, do this. So I just went up there and had a face-to-face meeting with them this morning, explaining everything. And it was all fine. But I literally had my finger on the email button to just send off an email. And I'm like, that email said objectively the exact same thing I said this morning, but I don't think the outcome would have been the same. And I think that's the reality of doing business today, that we cannot let go of that face-to-face value add, or else we're all just going to be machines doing transactions.

MELONY
Yeah, that rings very true in this moment. And we're all trigger happy on sending emails that maybe we shouldn't, and it creates so much mess, and then it just creates further confusion or further agitation. And getting in front of someone cannot be replaced, and those moments of understanding and the human relationship are so important. Do we have the time for it? I think that usually is sort of the excuse of, like, well, especially with builders, sometimes I'll just, I'm not trying to say that they're not open to meeting in person, but they have how many trades that are wanting their time to have a conversation. And so it's being strategic about explaining, hey, I think we should talk, because sometimes just the blanket, like, hey, can we have a meeting? Like, okay, explain why, and what the outcome should be or hopefully is. I think there's so much nuance that's lost in the process of who you are as a business, why a form is important. It's not just supposed to be a nuisance. And when that friction starts to arise, that I think is a point where an in-person conversation usually solves 90 percent of it.

ALEX
I've had it that at the start of projects we do a dinner with the clients. I've done that for a while. We actually always go to Marigold here. This project that we have going on right now will be the first one where I actually implement another concept, that I want us to every three-ish months go out to dinner. And it's such an insightful thing to me, because it's like, well, we'll only go out to dinner if things are good. I've got to be mentally aware, like, maybe there's something I'm just not super happy with in the process right now. I want to talk about that over dinner, breaking bread with you, people talking. And it was so insightful to me that it's like, just because I don't want to hear the bad information, I'm telling them that they should be willing to hear what they don't want to hear from me. But if I choose not to engage in that dinner, that's the true measure of me, because it might be that I don't want to hear from them. But trying to create an intentional platform to just talk about things, talk about what we're excited at, bring us back to a center, and hopefully celebrate what we should be focusing on. It's been incredibly insightful, because I want to be asking, what could we be doing better right now? How many people do you know right now that you've probably never talked to in person, but maybe exchanged a hundred emails with? Tile salesperson that we've done tens of thousands of dollars with. Never met in person. I actually ended up having to fill in on a meeting and I'm like, wow, I've done business with you for like five years. Never met.

MELONY
That's incredibly unique. Yeah, to just our time and age that there's that ability to work remotely, which is amazing. But at the same time, that dinner's going to be very memorable for them in terms of, this meant enough to Alex to sit down and talk and have the time for a meal. I think that's really impactful, and is going to also hopefully prevent those miscommunications in the future when there's bad news.

ALEX
Yeah, I joked at it that if there is a, and we'll see if I regret this, but I was like, if there ever is a hard conversation we need to have because we could be doing something better, just ask me to get a bite to eat. I'll pay, don't worry. Sometimes there's appropriate forms, but you can't lose the personability of it. It also comments on something else that I think, when I think about who we do business with on repeat, the vendors, there's always a cost equation that's involved. But I would say that the purchasing decision is very rarely being talked about as the cost of it. Because I would actually argue a lot of times that the cost on paper isn't the actual end cost of something in this incredibly complex thing, building a custom home. It's more about the relationships, the mechanisms, the systems, the infrastructure that our partners bring. And I look at Signature as being a little bit unique, actually, because you guys, I think, also have a, like Luke, who works with me, you know that the reason I like working with Luke is because of his background in installation. When I have a question, I almost feel bad for him, because I probably could be directing it to somebody else in the company, but I just respect him so much that I want his input. And that's why I like dealing with them. But you guys also have the install and things. That works both ways, though. I'm sure there's builders you like working with better. What are those communication, what's that descriptor you would use of the builders you guys like working with?

MELONY
It's a good question. I believe that the main key aspect to the builders we like working with are the ones that are good at communicating and are realistic about their schedule. And what I mean by that is, there's a lot of hurry up on the front end. We've got to get these ordered. We've got to get these ordered. Okay. And then, a form that we have is the lead time acknowledgement form. We can't control the manufacturer's lead time, but we want to make you aware of it. And this is their best guess right now. And of course, there are going to be things that could possibly change that, but here it is. And then we reach out a few weeks before that. And hopefully we've received all the product. If not, we're getting close to, and say, all right, we want to come out and review the openings and make sure we're good to go. And a lot of the time there's a bit of pushback of like, oh, we're ready. Yeah, we're totally ready. Okay, well, we would like to come out and chat with you, and sometimes getting someone to talk to us and meet us on site is difficult, and I think that it's not seen as a mission critical thing to move things forward. And the builders that we love working with are like, yeah, absolutely, let's do the walkthrough. We have PMs who do that review, and we have one PM, Keith, who I have at least six builders who say, Keith is the best, I want him on all of my projects, he's so thorough. And then they have a conversation. They review, especially the scenic door openings. Is this framed correctly? Are we going to be good to go? And sometimes we're not, and we need to delay a little bit, but at least we're not deploying our crew and showing up and then having to pull them from the job because things aren't ready. And that costs us money. The guys potentially have to go home, which is costing them a paycheck, or part of a paycheck. And when we show up and everything is ready to go, it's just so beautiful to see. There was one project we did with Buildwell and Building Collective, and I remember being on site for that project, and Antonio, who's one of our leads, the way he runs a job site is like beautiful to behold.

ALEX
I can attest to it.

MELONY
And it's just, it's seeing a professional do what they do. And then the builder being able to say, wow, we just, we love Antonio. It's so great to have you guys here. You guys just make it easy. So when we have people like that who understand what we do, understand our process, we have good communication, it's great. I think one thing that is tricky about us is, for instance, our sill pans. We don't do sill pans the same way other people do. It might be the first time we're working with a new builder, and we've got someone on the phone screaming at us, saying, what are you guys doing? And this is not how you do things. And we missed the communication on the front end to say, hey, just so you are aware, we do things a little differently. And I think you and I even had a moment on a job recently where Luke was unavailable. I was able to talk through some things. And what seems like maybe an issue, we were able to work through it.

ALEX
Almost everything we worked through. Completely agree. Yeah, yeah. Well, I have to give you guys credit on this one, too. So the first job you guys did was the first from us. First time I had somebody independently come out and verify ROs. I was like, why the heck aren't we doing that internally? So then I, in Procore, actually built out a workflow where at the beginning of every single project, every single RO gets put into an inspection line. And first time we did that was on the last project in Boulder, which you guys did, and it was fascinating, because Michael goes, why are we doing this? They're going to do that for us. I'm like, well, this is the layer of confidence right here. We'll take all we can get. We're going to do it, and then they're going to do it. And of course one person catches one thing, one person catches the other. I now get the feedback from Michael literally asking for those types of inspections for way too long of a list that I don't have enough time, but he thinks it's the absolute best thing ever. And I think that that's actually a cool example of, we can all learn from each other, and hopefully by you guys doing that inspection for us elevates us. Hopefully by us being like, hey, Keith, check this out. We did ours. Tell us where we messed up, because we're here for it, kind of thing. And that kind of approach, that's the bigger outcome right there.

MELONY
Well, and we iterated that process really from a pain point with builders that we're not going to be able to control. Sometimes we're told that openings are ready, we show up and they're not ready. We can't control that.

ALEX
I've been guilty.

MELONY
And it happens quite a bit. And rather than banging our heads against the wall over and over again and getting frustrated, it just made sense. All right, let's pay for the investment of having someone who can go out and do that, which is not a small investment. But the reward is, you guys feel good, solid. We're good to go. We feel happy about the situation, and we don't have to have a disagreement. And sometimes money and resources fixes things. But that also, again, goes to, when you're talking about our value on the front end to your homeowners and saying, hey, I go with Signature. This is why I go with them. They may be not the lowest price that I'm going to put in front of you. That helps explain the why. We have to account for that cost.

ALEX
Yeah, yeah. Because also, here's the really easy example. Say the windows aren't right, and now we're getting change order out the wazoo or something like that. That cost differentiator just was a 3x multiplier overnight, and what looked cheap was actually expensive, right? I think it's the easiest thing for false expectations to be set on at times. That might be a kind way of phrasing it. So a question I've asked a lot of people doing this podcast, which ties into the one I just asked you about how you'd like to be communicated with builders and what you see as successful builders. Take another step higher. I'm looking to build a custom home. I'm thinking of who should I hire, architect wise, builder wise. You interact with tons of them on all types of levels. Give me some advice. What do you think I should be looking for? What questions should I ask?

MELONY
What's most important to you? And that could be many different answers. If it's that you want a cutting edge architectural design that is going to grace the cover of a magazine, there's a few architects that are going to really fit that genre. If it's someone that you want, for instance, that is going to help you tell a story with your home, I would say some of the gentlemen over at Build Studio, and what I love about their process is they call it narrative based design, and they want to go to the factories and learn about how Marvin windows are made and understand, oh, this company has been around for 125 years, and this is why they choose this material, and these are the people who work in their factory. And then they tell that story to their homeowner, and it's a relationship, and they speak about it the same way you do, where we're working on these projects for years with these homeowners, and it becomes a personal relationship, and they go skiing. So maybe that's what you're all about, and you have to decide if you want someone that is going to be interactive, or is speed the most important part? And this builder can, they do X amount of projects a year, and that's what's most important. I think that's a hard thing for a homeowner to know on the front end, what they're going to want. But I think one of the things you talked about when we first met was how you wanted to have the homeowner aware of everything that's going on the project. I think you dialed it back a little bit.

ALEX
I definitely dialed it back. Definitely.

MELONY
But you wanted transparency to be a pillar of your interaction with the homeowner. So I think it just depends. It's kind of, I get asked this question a lot, which is, what's the best window? And I say the best window is the best window for where your home is located, what the conditions are, what the altitude is. And that's going to change the answer. It's not, I can't say, oh, an aluminum clad window is the best answer. It's really totally based on your specific project.

ALEX
So that is a unique answer compared to everything else I've been told all the time, but that one actually resonates a lot for me, because probably it's like a 50-50 split. If a client comes to us, they either have already come through an architect and the architect's bringing them into us. But also a lot of times people are coming to us first, and then we're facilitating the relationship with the architect. And part of that process when they come to us first is I try to discuss with them what they actually value. And I've used in that conversation, I think you did it more eloquently, but I've used the cliche triangle, speed, cost, quality. And I go, okay, here's these three words that we all know. I need you to just tell me what each one of those looks like to you. And I've found it fascinating. I have some clients that can articulate it to the nth degree so well. But I would say over half of them actually really haven't spent the time yet to articulate that. And I think that maybe as a professional, there's almost this educational process that is just natural in doing this thing. Because we're the experts. The clients are not. That's why we're the professional, kind of helping them. Well, quality can look like millwork details on the inside, but it can also look like building science. It can also look like longevity in other forms. Also, if we want to talk about sustainability, sustainability could be a timeless design that's not going to get torn down in 50 years. It can also be environmental materials. Let's just talk about that at a high level, and I think that maybe as an industry, when we all have so much information coming in all the time, helping people to understand what they actually want is a really big value add, which, it's such a complex process that you should probably know, right?

MELONY
Yeah. I'm amazed sometimes that when our team is working on a variety of projects and I ask, well, what's the story of the homeowner? Why are they building this house? And no slight towards them, a lot of the times they don't know the answer. But that's also because they have the filter of the architect or they have the filter of the builder. They're not speaking directly to the homeowner. Or, like in Aspen, there's an owner's rep. There's no way we're ever going to even possibly know who the homeowner is. But where are they from? If they're from Texas and steel windows are super popular in Texas, are they aware that the U-factors for steel in Colorado are going to be something to work with? And the price is going to look different because of that. And we can accomplish that aesthetic with different products. But has that conversation been had? If they're from California, there are so many floor channel sill doors there that are seamless, not a problem. Well, they don't have a lot of driving rain and snow to consider with that. And we have to have performance rated sills. So then you have to have this conversation of, I know you really want that, but to have that, that properly channels the water, we're talking about a different level of product that can do that and meet what your vision is. So we have to slow down a little bit and actually be curious and find out who these people are, because that's how we either win or lose a job. We didn't understand them enough to meet their requirements, and therefore we put the wrong solution in front of them.

ALEX
I think that's, coming back to even just communication as a whole, something I'm constantly working on is accepting responsibility first before being like, well, the client didn't understand this concept of value. It's like, well, what could I have done better to communicate what that actually was? Because the reality is, we kind of talked about renderings and stuff like that, the ability of somebody to interpret. Like my clients right now up on the ridge above us, she needs me to render absolutely everything. Because we are talking a foreign language until she sees it in 3D high res. I then realized, why was these, not big miscommunications, but just the expectations weren't being met to my standard? I have to render just everything. I should have known that. Why am I not just doing it? Why am I relying on her to tell me that she can't interpret it when she's already told me that 57 different times? And so now I just render everything, send it to her, quick answer, and it's done.

MELONY
Tracking issues to where they originated, and what you're saying about this customer. When I see, our CRM allows me to see the email threads with customers. And when I see that there's an email thread that's the length of a Tolstoy novel, I'm like, okay, I think you need to get on the phone, or we need to get in front of these people so that everybody understands what's going on, because a lot is getting lost in translation. And you can't develop a project through emails alone. You just can't.

ALEX
Yeah, and you shouldn't.

MELONY
So that's a red flag for me when I see that. And also I'd see a lot of communication where I can tell that the customer is grappling for an understanding of something, and it's not connecting. And that's where you have to, okay, even if it's just getting on a video call and showing something specifically to get it moving to the next phase, I think would actually cut out a lot of back and forth for us.

ALEX
It's such a good reminder. We were talking about AI before all this and all the things that it can do. And it makes me think of, AI is not going to build your house, in Times Square as a billboard. So true. It's going to impact how we build our house. But it also makes it just so easy to just fire off emails and fire off all this stuff and forget all this and think that, well, these processes and systems, which I am screaming at the hilltop that we have to rely on these systems. But we forget that what these systems are supposed to serve is the human element of all this. Because if we lose that, then I don't think that there's going to be an outcome at the end of any of these projects that would make it an industry I will enjoy being in. You might as well be in some other one. Last thing I wanted to touch on, obviously I have two young daughters. I want to make sure that this podcast facilitates female voices within the industry. And I think that it's easier to do that in the design community. I think that you being on the construction side of things is such a powerful perspective. And especially from somebody that I respect, that I think has a powerful voice and so much to offer. It's important to hear what your experience is as being a female within the construction industry, because I'm sure that hearing that is something that we can all benefit from.

MELONY
Thank you. That's a very thoughtful question that I think is important. I really do think it's an important reality to acknowledge. I was super lucky to have an amazing role model in the construction industry. My uncle and his wife adopted me when I was 14, and my uncle's wife graduated from School of Mines with a civil engineering degree. And at that time, that was a big deal. School of Mines was not a super friendly place in terms of female enrollment. And she really showed me by example, being a strong woman in an industry that wasn't exactly accommodating or friendly to her. And when I was in high school, she worked for a forensic construction consulting company in Denver. And in my summers in high school, I worked there and did receptionist work and got to see her being one of 10, being one woman in a company of 10 of all men, and really just being herself and being unafraid to have a voice. So I feel really fortunate that I got to see that. And I have worked in female-dominated industries, design, floral design and wedding design and event design. I am one of three females in our company, which is a unique experience, and I'm the only female on the leadership team. And the experience I have is having to push myself to speak up even when I really don't want to. And representing a different perspective. I don't want to say women have the corner on emotional intelligence, but I do feel that there's a human element that can sometimes get lost. And I feel like the fierce defender of, hey, I don't know if that's going to feel good to that person. And I don't know if that customer is going to appreciate that type of communication. And trying to bring that into the conversation, also for the sales team, I'm their fierce defender of, hey, I'm going to represent their voice. And I would also say, I don't want it to sound negative, but it can be exhausting, just sort of pushing through and trying to remain brave. And also there is the unseen labor of being a female in the company of men, where it's like, oh, the recycling is overflowing, or, oh, we have guests coming in, we need to make sure things look appropriate. It's just all those little things. And then there's the den mother aspect of trying to make sure that we have events that feel, where the salespeople, the installers, everyone feels appreciated and seen, and trying to make sure that there's little moments of celebration. And I do love doing it, but it does feel like there's a lot of unnoticed labor.

ALEX
I think back to my upbringing. I don't think I can remember ever seeing a female that was not part of a design team around a project. I think of multiple now that I've seen around them. It's still not enough. I don't know if that difference is a tangible change that you've experienced as well. I think back even to my relationship with my wife and business, because every time I have a hard decision to make, and because I know my shortcomings, she knows my shortcomings better than I do, I need her perspective as inherently being different than mine, and having her assets, who she is as a person, give me that input, because it's like all together as one, that decision is going to be better. I think that the construction industry needs to adopt a little bit of that same approach, and that it's not supposed to be the same. It doesn't need to be the same. It can be. But recognizing that a female might have a different approach and assets, and something incredibly valuable for us as a whole to bring to the table, and that it's by facilitating that voice we are all going to be better for. The needle's moving too slowly. I think that needs to be said. But it is awesome, in all fairness, or I should say that, to see there's kick-ass women in this industry that are paving the way, and having little daughters and be like, yep, there's Melony kicking ass in the leadership team. See, women do badass things in construction too. It's really cool as a father and as just a person in this industry. I want to make sure to give credit where credit is due.

MELONY
I really appreciate that. And I want to recognize some phenomenal women in our space. I'll call out Candace with Minted Homes, who, I'm not going to say she's the only female GC in the Boulder area, but I think she's one of very few, and she's crushing it. She's doing a great job, and we have really important conversations about this topic. I also want to recognize Hannah Sloan and Dave Sloan. Dave is the biggest champion of women in the industry that I've experienced, in his company having female PMs. And then Hannah is just, she's, as Dave would call her, she's the beast, but she does CrossFit. He doesn't mean that in that. But yeah, so there's that. I will say that I can't remember an experience where I had an architect in our industry or a builder speak down to me, and that is really refreshing. I think where things get a little tricky is of course any social outings with alcohol. That's where things get weird. But I do feel very, very respected. And I appreciate that. And I think there is that moment where you are talking to someone or they come into the showroom and they're a builder, and they don't expect that I'm going to know anything. They're going to expect that I'm on the sales side or admin side. And as the conversation goes further, there's a recognition of, oh, okay, I wasn't expecting that. I want that to go away. Because if I'm here and I'm sitting in this building, I sure hope I know something about windows and doors. But I think it's a rich atmosphere. I think the female architects we have in our space are, Amanda Christensen and Tessa over at Building Collective. There are really phenomenal people in our space doing phenomenal things. And I do feel like, probably compared to some other parts of the country, we're in a good spot. And I do think it can get better.

ALEX
Yeah. No, it's no secret. It's a work in progress. And it just requires us all making sure we're elevating each other. For lack of a better metaphor, but giving the microphone to the correct people to voice that awareness that should be there. And I'll just say this, that I think hearing you just say that, I've had a very different, but I got tired of having to address the fact that I was younger than somebody else for a little while. And I've come to this, like I had a mentor tell me, everyone in business is solving a problem. At some point in time, you just want to be in a position where you can choose what problem you want to solve. And I think that in the construction industry, we need to have a goal of just having it be that women don't have to solve the problem of proving that they're worth being in the room because they're a woman. They should be solving the other problem, the exact same other problem as the other men in the room. That's the standard we kind of need to get to, because that's just a waste of everyone's time, when these women that I'm participating in the professional space with are, sometimes more times than not, the biggest value add in the room compared to the rest of us. So no, I just wanted to make sure to touch on that. Because again, it's just awesome to see, and really want to make sure to support it as well.

MELONY
I, again, just really appreciate it. And I think it is a conversation to keep alive, because it is easy to just say, oh, it's working out, it's coming along. It is, but we still need the light shone on it here and there. And I would say, just again, we've talked a lot about communication today, and I think that language is probably one of the biggest barriers between, it's one of the biggest barriers in having women feel supported in the workspace. And what I mean by that is, when a woman communicates something forcefully, we've all heard it, she comes off in a way that people don't exactly appreciate. But if someone else was saying it, or you were saying the exact same thing, you're a guy getting it done, he's really on top of his stuff. Okay, we have to kind of remove these double standards and appreciate that being forceful or having a strong opinion does not indicate that a woman's being disagreeable. That's really important to me. And I know that it's not a bias that anyone's trying to purposely put into place, but it definitely exists.

ALEX
Well, first step in solving any problem is a sense of awareness, right? So continue talking about it, and hopefully the rest of us can try to do our part to support you.

MELONY
I really appreciate you taking the time today.

ALEX
Yeah, no, thank you, thank you. Appreciate it.

MELONY
Thank you.