ALEX
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Build Project. I don't know why but maybe it's because Pat who was the episode of this podcast referenced with all my cameras I'm like Matt Risinger. Highly doubtful but I almost just did The Build Project the same way he announces his show. Anyways, hey so this episode quick intro Pat Buchanan, Buchanan Construction Systems, the general contractor here in Boulder. Pat has done it all. His resume is incredibly impressive. The list of people he has worked with over time is really something I immensely respect but above all of it that's just a good guy. You know I don't know if it's because of relationships I've had in the past but you know mentorship being having a forever student mindset has just been a really important thing to me and I've noticed that some people are more inclined to be willing to share and to open up and to collaborate with the different people within this community more so so than others and Pat you know I'm just really getting to know him but in the few conversations that we've had he's just been willing to share his expertise his knowledge his experience with me and I think he jokes with me when he says that he can learn a thing or two from me. I'm still waiting for that day but nonetheless it was a great conversation and I think also a really really honest one regarding what it takes to build these incredible custom things that we are lucky enough to do. Enjoy!

PAT
My name is Pat Buchanan. I'm with Buchanan Construction Systems, a company that I started in the early 90s when I first moved to Colorado. Originally as a, just a construction, I was a carpenter, a framer, and then started doing interior trim things. And then moved, sort of evolved into construction management, supervision on a big project, which was sort of my introduction to the custom, ultra custom market in Boulder. And I haven't looked back since. Got my general contractor's license after that first big ultra custom I did in 2001. And been proudly building houses since then.

ALEX
Wow. I think I know this, but when was, because I know from just more so from what I've been told, when were the Harrington Stanko years? Was that in the beginning?

PAT
So the first job that I had a framing crew and I was framing houses.

ALEX
Oh, see, I didn't know this. Okay.

PAT
And got a call from a friend that I had gone to college with in Maryland. And he said, you should come see this house that I just, he answered an ad in the paper that was simply stated. That tells you how long ago it was. He answered an ad in the paper. Who does that anymore? He answered an ad in the paper that said, carpenters needed for a special project. And that intrigued him. So he went and looked at it, called me, got hired as a carpenter, a framer, and called me and said, you should come see this project. I went to see it. Ends up, the guy who was supervising it, I had played ice hockey with before. His name was Lou Rogers. And I said, Lou, how's it going? And he said, this is great. We need carpenters. I'm dying here. It was a 16,000 square foot house. It was up by NCAR. An amazing project. The architect was [name withheld until confirmed], who was an offshoot from Hoby Wagener. So [the architect] had quite a history behind him. Hoby Wagener was a pretty famous 60s and 70s architect in Boulder. When you drive into Boulder on 28th Street, there's this church that has that prow, the stainless steel glass. Or the stained glass prow. That's a Hoby Wagener project. And there are several other really, really cool, very unique 70s-esque projects that Hoby had done. And so [the architect] learned from him. He commissioned this incredible 16,000 square foot house up by NCAR that I, once I saw that Lou was working there, I actually dissolved my framing crew and said, I'm going to go work there. And so I started working there. And it was a five-year build. And they were in the middle of framing it. And at that time, I had just purchased my first house. And it came with a log splitter. And I happened to lop my finger off in that log splitter. And they sewed it back on. I'm fine. But I was bandaged up. And Lou Rogers, the supervisor, said, hey, I really want to keep you on board. That was about six months into my time on the job as a framer slash carpenter. And he said, I would love your help as a supervisor. And so that was in 1999 or something. So that was my introduction and bags off moment in my career. And moved into construction management from that point forward.

ALEX
Well, that actually, a question I would have on that, because it's come up in a couple of other podcasts that I'd be interested to hear your opinion. Because the way it was for me growing up was I was raised to be a carpenter, even though bigger projects were going on. And if anything, it was, until you can be the best carpenter here on site as, my son, grandson, you're not really allowed to talk to anyone kind of thing. it was just, rite of passage, if anything. And then you moved your way up. It was a very old school German way of doing things. And I have talked to a few people about that transition. And I think that it's sometimes interesting to me that people think because I was a trim carpenter, I am therefore a better builder. And I do think that that's true in a lot of situations. But I think that there's this whole other world of being a builder that isn't really talked about that much, where just because I could do perfect miters or whatever example we want to use didn't mean that I was great at client relations or managing books and things like that. And I think a lot of people that try to go out on their own for the first time overlook that a little bit. But do you remember that kind of being a transition period?

PAT
Absolutely. I mean, I could talk forever in that. What I like to say about that is one of my takeaways as being a carpenter was you would show up to a job site. There'd be a pile of lumber. At the end of the day, that pile of lumber would turn. It's something tangible. You could see this thing that you'd built. And there's a pride involved with that. And it's just this thing that you can see. And that was my big takeaway from being a carpenter. So when I transitioned from carpentry into management, I actually struggled for a couple of years. Like, what am I doing here? I'm like, sure, I'm telling these other carpenters what to build, scheduling other subcontractors. And I remember saying to people, maybe my parents or my family or whoever, friends, I feel like I'm just talking about houses. This is ridiculous. I'm not actually building houses. I'm just talking about them. And then I realized after a couple of years of doing it that I was still building things. The tangible things that I was building were relationships. Yeah. Relationships with my clients. And that has become as rewarding, if not more rewarding, than the rewards of building something physical out of wood. And it's way more complex. I mean, not that carpentry is simple. The carpenters, they work their butts off, and it's hard work. And, today, I'm working on a project right now, and we're in the middle of the structure. And just the Simpson hanger specifications are complex. I mean, you see the Simpson book gets thicker and thicker every year. It's unbelievable.

ALEX
You need a degree.

PAT
You need a degree. It's like, it's incredibly complex. So these carpenters, while it is manual, physical labor, it also takes a pretty big brain on these guys to put these structures together. But my point is that I really, really enjoy building those relationships with my clients and the architects and the structural engineers and the subcontractors. I mean, our lives ultimately are about relationships at the end of the day. And to be able to harness that or to work through that in my career has been incredibly rewarding. That's my favorite part about it, actually.

ALEX
I mean, at the end of the day, business is about relationships, I think, which is something me just speaking in person. I found that, it's something I'm always aware of. But at the end of the day, you also have to build the house. So then you steer a little bit. And then, every time I feel like I'm coming off track a little bit and where I want the company or the product to be going, then I'm just, I have this little thing in my notebook where I go, it's about the relationship at the end of the day. And as long as you steer towards that in some way, shape or form, you're going to be okay. Something I did kind of want to touch on, too, because something that's been really formidable for me is this concept of just learning from the different people I've been close to in my career over time. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you were really close with Tom Stanko, right? I've heard, never having been around, having seen Harrington Stanko Homes, having seen some of the homes that you built while you were close with them. And I've always kind of viewed them as a standard at a certain point and heard, incredible things, what it was like to work for them. So I remember even when you were originally described to me, just it was about how your job sites were ran. And that was like, the description of, Pat Buchanan, best ran job site around kind of thing. What was, in hindsight, some things that you learned from Tom Stanko?

PAT
So, even before that, I'll get to Tom Stanko, but before I was with Harrington Stanko, and so that job that I mentioned, that big 16,000 square foot house, that was a Harrington job. Probably 10 years before the merger of Harrington Stanko. Before I was with Harrington Stanko, I worked for Cottonwood. I worked for a lot of different builders. And I like to think that my current company philosophy is the good from all the builders I worked with, and I eliminated the bad from the stuff I learned from these builders. So, I really actually, I feel fortunate that I was able, that I, just for whatever reason, I worked for a bunch of different builders to learn different things from each one of them. one person, for example, someone you've never, maybe you've never heard of, his name is Lee Stevens. He was a sort of a single flying general contractor, incredibly smart. Went to MIT. Was a boat builder from Massachusetts. Moved to Colorado to pursue climbing. 10, 15 years older than I am. Incredibly smart. One of the best builders I've ever worked with before. He was a challenging guy to work for. He was a perfectionist, and he was a wonderful guy. Challenging to work for. Probably smarter than, too smart for his own good or something. I don't know. I had trouble with relationships with subcontractors. Anyway, built an absolutely incredible house. I learned a ton from him. I did another five-year project with him out in Eldorado Springs. Incredible piece of property. House, indoor riding arena, seven-style horse barn. One of three equine facilities that I built in a row. Three five-year equine facilities in a row. Anyway, so I've worked for Harrington Stanko for several years. Did an incredible project out in Wildflower Ranch on Cherryvale with [an architecture studio] with Harrington Stanko. At that time, when I was building that one, was the merger between Harrington and Stanko. Actually, the one on Cherryvale, sorry, was with Harrington only. Harrington and Stanko merged by design of [a developer], who interviewed people to do tenant finish on his project at 9th and Canyon. It's a bank at the first level, three or four, three levels of residential. It's 9th and Canyon.

ALEX
Yeah. By the St. Julian, right?

PAT
Right by the St. Julian, exactly. [The developer] was interviewing custom home builders to do tenant finish because he wanted to really up the ante and do really, really nice finishes. He interviewed both Harrington and Stanko and said, you know what? Why don't you guys join forces and I'll hire you? So that was the start of Harrington and Stanko. Before that, they were the top two competitors in Boulder.

ALEX
That is wild.

PAT
So it's interesting. Yeah. So for a long time, there was a rivalry between the subcontractors of the Harrington crew and the Stanko team. And then they had to join forces. And so there were some feelings involved with all that transition. And I loved it because I was like, here's another builder I get to learn from. And Tom and I hit it off immediately. Tom is a construction sage, was a construction sage. He had a long, long history of building incredible houses from the 60s and 70s. He went to Yale. He had gone to Yale, went to CU, got an architecture degree, came out of CU with that and said, I don't want to be an architect. I sit in a cubicle. I want to build houses. Unbeknownst to me, how he landed his first project was to build Dan Fogelberg's house in Pagosa Springs. And so he went down to Pagosa Springs and built this incredible log cabin and then moved up to Boulder and in between Boulder and Steamboat he built for 50 years. Incredible things. And so the decades that I got to spend with him, I gleaned absolutely as much information I could from him. And I think about him every day, several times every day. I quote him probably three times a day to subcontractors because he was just so, there are very few people I have met before or since. And Alex, you are one that's creeping up on this, who shares my passion for building. And so, I mean, we would talk every morning. We would talk every day, several times a day, mostly on the phone because he had always five or six or seven projects going on and supervisors and stuff all over the place. So he was very busy, but he always made time for me and we always talked every morning. And it was mostly about the bigger picture. It wasn't about, what should the reveal be on this base detail. It was more about bigger picture, general contractor, subcontractor relations. Actually, the primary thing that we talked about was the relationship between architects and builders. That's that. That relationship, the whole OAC relationship, the owner, architect and contractor. The relationship is, it's fascinating to me. There's, and I read as much as I can. I just absorb as much as I can about that stuff. And Tom was brilliant at it. That's why I think one of the reasons he was so successful was his, because he had an architecture degree, because he could speak the language of the architects. He excelled. and I think maybe that's part of the reason I enjoy it so much and that I've done okay and have landed great jobs because I also wanted to be an architect and I didn't get into Rhode Island School of Design, which was the only sort of technical school that I had applied to. So I went off to Maryland and got a silly liberal arts degree.

ALEX
But start with RISD and then work your way down.

PAT
Right, went from RISD to all the way down to the silly little liberal arts thing. but I think it's speaking the language with the architects. And I actually find that community, I ended up being a communications major. And so that communication, speaking the language of the architects, you can actually sort of apply that to my day to day on site with subcontractors is speaking the language of the drywaller, speaking the language of the framer, speaking the language of the plumber, of the electrician, of the HVAC guys, of the structural engineers, all of those things, all of those bits of communication. And knowing just enough to be able to speak that language with people is the key to success in this industry.

ALEX
Yeah. it's really interesting to hear you say that because I actually, just in that interview, I told you about with Jeffrey Dungan, I was telling a little bit about my career trajectory and how I actually went back to school for architecture. And then I was told by a friend, Hey, are you crazy? you're going to sit in a cubicle and basically work as an apprentice drafter for years. And then, he's like, you're already building great things. Just double down, man. I said that and I was like, I think some people are afraid that I could be stepping on toes, because in my mind, which is obviously, I view it as an asset, like you were alluding to yourself. I think it's freeing to the designer because then they also have somebody that they can rely on the interpretation of what they are trying to accomplish and have it supported, have it elevated. And, that doesn't have to be stepping on toes. It's more so just that I can speak a similar language, just being aware of what, your design process and what you need in order to facilitate. And I would hope that actually elevates the product in the end as opposed to slowing it down.

PAT
But there is some nuance. There is.

ALEX
And I constantly have to, check myself, I think, in order to make sure that it's the right balance.

PAT
I do too. And I actually probably say three times a week, I don't mean to step on any design toes here. I actually use the exact terms you just said there, the phrase you used. I don't mean to step on design toes, but what if we did this? And I was thinking about it on the way over here. The architect's design, when I finish a project during a project, I feel like, my gosh, I am, I'm the one doing this. When I finish a project and I step back and I look at the finished project, I actually realize I didn't have anything to do with that. I, the designer, the architects are the ones that came up with that. And I just get to build their cool views. Now there's a million points between those in that line, an infinite number of points on the, on that line. But, it's all just, it's all exciting stuff actually.

ALEX
No, it's great. And, the phrase that I stumbled upon, I can't remember how, and I've used it a couple of times. I, and I've used this to Michael who works, with me, we're the steward of the design.

PAT
That's a great, I like that. I like that a lot.

ALEX
When I broke it down and I was trying to explain that to him a little bit further, I was like, I think that there's a responsibility on interpreting something as it was intended. And there's two parties involved there, obviously the designer has to do their process in order to make sure they're communicating in the best way possible. There's still a level of interpretation there though. When it is made real. And like, that's what CA is for obviously and things like that. But that is a, I think the ability of a builder to implement that intent with nuance, with an understanding of the larger picture at all times, which includes budget schedule, all these other crazy things that might not necessarily be at the top of the mind when developing a design. That's the nuance and things like that. That's the steward role. And how to protect it.

PAT
There's a cautionary tale in all of this though. it is stepping in to the design world invokes, introduces liability. There's the Spearin Doctrine. You familiar with the Spearin Doctrine? Yeah. So that's something to think about. I'll give you an example. three, two or three projects ago, architects brought to the table a specification of some pre-finished hardwood flooring. And I looked at it had a beautiful color on top and it was the basis of the choice of that wood flooring, pre-finished, engineered, five-eighths thick. This whole movement to five-eighths thick flooring, it messes everything up. Anyway, so that was the first strike in my opinion against it was the thickness because what am I going to do? A tile transitions and so forth. So I'm thinking out long-term for me, ultimately for the client and saving money and their end product who wants a weird step in their tile to wood floor. Not only was it five-eighths thick, it also had a two millimeter wear layer, which was a red flag. The wood on the top is two millimeters thick. I would prefer a five, six millimeter wear layer because then you can finish it as many times as you can finish solid wood. and the core was pine and it was nine inches wide. These were nine inch wide planks. That pine is going to fail. This is over radiant. Not that the radiant is going to leak, but there's, I just, I couldn't in good conscience put that in knowing that I'm going to get the call, not the architect when that wood fails. And so I said, Hey, how about this other wood? How about this other, let's try these other three. And they found one. The colors were a tiny bit off. And throughout the project, as the architects continued to change the designs and mess with the schedule to build the house, as the schedule increased, every time I would bring up the schedule, they said, well, you changed that wood. And we had to find new wood and we based that wood on the colors. And that changed the paint colors that changed the wood. It changed the species of this. It changed the cabinets. All of their specs throughout the whole project, because I didn't like their spec of wood, rippled through and changed everything. And I get it. And so Tom Stanko, I can quote Tom Stanko. You can't know too much. You are hired to build this building. Put your blinders on, do the drawings, build it that way. I understand that. That makes sense. Again, there's probably a balance in there. But at the same time, I want to be involved. I want to be able to tell my client, I'm not putting, you can't use this wood. This wood's going to fail. And so that's, there's a, that's a hard, it's hard for us who love to design. Yeah. But there's a balance there and it's all about communication. Because had I, now that I know that, if I introduce something like maybe this different wood, I have to, I will, I'll bring that story up.

ALEX
Yeah. No. Michael, who works for me, he's, he just turned 66. He's very much of how you just described Tom Stanko, his approach. He's that, and I think it's kind of an old school approach in some ways. And the way you just, because I struggle with what you just said right there. And I, because I do think that, you can't be a burden to the process. You're supposed to facilitate the design being executed. And I struggle with the balance because I don't think that there's a right answer.

PAT
To stay in your lane, to stay in that lane.

ALEX
Well, it's like, but I also, our obligation is towards the client.

PAT
Yeah. I'm a representative of the client. I want to save them as much money or build as cheaply as possible and as accurate. Yeah.

ALEX
And so I want there to be like this level of agency on providing the client. And in my mind, that's always information. And I, it's not like, Hey, I think that this is shit and this is good. oh, this is bad. No, it's more like if we are in a position to where we should understand something or it meets the threshold, which is such an arbitrary line. I struggle, I think in my career to know when do I bring this up to the, as part of a conversation, when do you not. Because it can be burdensome. But at the same time, I think I can go, safely say that something I have immediately recognized about you is that you care about the thing that you are building as I do. And sometimes it makes it actually hard to know. It's like, well, I want the best version of this because I care so much about the project. Yeah.

PAT
I will say that in my experience, that example I gave with the wood floor and that changing and rippling through the whole project, that's probably 10%. The other 90% of my suggestions have gone over wonderfully and they've been, the architect loves them. And again, I introduced that by saying, I don't mean to step on anybody's toes here, but what if we tried this other wood? And because I can speak that architectural language, I think, I hope to think that architects enjoy that collaborativeness of the process.

ALEX
Yeah. I mean, something you and I have talked about even outside of this specific conversation is how important those relationships with the clients are and things like that. And I think that when those types of interactions have been successful and or maybe best implemented is when I knew the client well enough to know what their value proposition was. And I think maybe to use your flooring analogy, if I knew that the client's value proposition was that they want hardy, high quality materials, and I'm aware of that. But, obviously I think there's also proper channels to go through with the design team and, being respectful and also, always prioritizing that team approach. But I think it's that awareness of where the values are. Yeah. That takes a lot of experience.

PAT
You pick your battles.

ALEX
Really good way of phrasing it. That all being said, a lot of the themes that I've touched on the podcast across other episodes is just this, and I think I might have mentioned it to you already, everyone has expertise to offer. Towards what makes a successful project. I, one thing I have learned that I didn't intend that question to kind of answer was that everyone defines a successful project differently. Some it's just the end product, some it's the relationship with the client. And, those two things are not necessarily always the same. In your experience, or at least like with where you are currently, what do you view as being the biggest indicators of a successful project?

PAT
Oh, there's a lot, there's a lot of things. certainly being on budget, and that, and, budget and schedule are huge. quality goes without saying, the quality of a project. And that's all in the subs that you hire and the management of the job and making sure you're fulfilling what the architect draws to get the quality that's expected. I think that the budget part, the budget and schedule, one of the ways that I feel that I've succeeded in a project is building the budget from the get go. at that time I'm building this structure. the houses that I build sometimes, I mean, I've built a 16,000 square foot house and I've done a 2000 square foot house. So anything in between I've built these projects in my mind's eye to build the budget, in discussions with all the subcontractors coming up with their numbers, putting them into the spreadsheet and a successful project for me would be the budget is completely solid. I feel confident about every single number. Inevitably things will move around, but if I can get within 5% at the end over or under, I feel like that's successful of the budget. When I put the schedule together, which I use a scheduling software program, I'm building it again in my mind's eye. and if I can successfully build a schedule and keep it within 5% of time, in building it, that's also another key to success. Now, when it comes to the client, and so actually let me go back to schedule for a second. One of the things that I do, for example, I'll put, I'm making all these dates up and whatever tile will start on November 1st. I know in my experience and actually from the spec of the tile that this tile is going to be 12 weeks out. So in my schedule, I go back 12 weeks from November 1st when tile starts and there's a big milestone in there for that OAC meeting 12 weeks before I have to order the tile this day. I go back another four weeks and discuss it and say, Hey, are we sure this tile is the right tile? I'm ordering it in four weeks. It gives everybody a chance. So if I have those milestones marked in my schedule, then that schedule is going to succeed at the end. And so those, that's one of the keys to success in the schedule part.

ALEX
Which one do you think is harder to manage the schedule or the budget? And I asked that. Cause I also tell people that those two things are always connected.

PAT
They're absolutely connected.

ALEX
I sometimes wonder which one's first, the chicken or the egg kind of thing.

PAT
I will say, post COVID the budget. Before COVID with supply chains and gas prices. And, you see proposals we get from, suppliers, this is a 30 day, this steel proposal for $300,000 for this project is good for 30 days because their suppliers are saying, I don't know what to tell you. All of the, four by four HSS, four by quarter inch are all bought by the data centers. So there aren't any. So now they're $12 a linear foot instead of whatever. so this gets so, and that affects schedule also. So, so those are so interconnected.

ALEX
Yeah. I just had a client ask me about that and he's like, how are you forecasting for that moving forward? Cause you, we have a budget right now, but the house isn't going to get built for another two years probably. And I was like, Oh, where do I start? Yeah.

PAT
I mean, typically in my, historically 7% was the increase I would put on an annual basis. And since COVID it's more like 30 to 35%. Yeah. The two years after COVID, the two, 20, 22, 21 and 22, 35% increase. It was my clients were beside themselves and I was doing an insurance job. And so the insurance company, there was a fire replacement of wildfire replacement project. And, the insurance company had, I known at the time, I, Tom Stanko and I both made a mistake in the budget is that we did not allot for how much time was going to be needed to be spent discussing with the insurance company. He was funding the project, because the prices were going through the roof post COVID just happened to be right after this, the CalWood Fire up in, up north of Boulder. it was unbelievable. That was a, that was a trying time for all parties. Yeah. It was really, really tough. success for the clients. Also in my experience, I have found most of my projects take, I did three, five year projects in a row. So I have the, I had the odd, ability or the way to say that, for in 15 years, I built three houses. And I would just joke about that link. My grandkids would be like, yeah, Pop-Pop was a builder. He only built three houses in 15 years. He must've really sucked at it. Yeah.

ALEX
But you can fit 30 houses in those three houses. Exactly.

PAT
Most of my projects are two years, right around two years. I have found in my experience that a year after my clients have lived there, I will get a call or an email or a text that says, thank you. That was worth it. It takes a year to decompress from the trauma of shelling out $250,000 a month writing checks to me. That's hard. And I try to, I try to empathize with clients around that. Now, 1% problems for the 1%ers, but it is hard.

ALEX
It's not for, if you are trying to avoid stress, I would not advise that you participate in this. It doesn't need to be unnecessarily stressful either. But the reality is that if you are going to try to build something that is a one of one, that is immensely beautiful, a work of art, and that is a work of art intended specifically for you and your family. There is a level of stress that you will inherently have to experience for that. And now you want the team in your corner that is, there to support you through that and make it as little as possible. But to have the expectation, it's just going to be fun at every single moment. That's not the reality. And it's a really hard thing to sell people when they're spending these kinds of money like you alluded to. but I think that the better somebody could understand that the more successful of an outcome they're going to have. I, I've said this before. We had some friends that were, admittedly, they're not building it or doing a $5 million remodel or anything like that, but they were going to buy a house, kind of fix and flip it with a GC. And I have a very firm rule. I don't work for family or friends. Right. And I immediately told them I wasn't interested. And I think though, because of that, they wanted to know my opinion on whether or not they should do it. And they had, one-year-old twins at the time.

PAT
Oh my.

ALEX
And I simply just said, no, don't do it.

PAT
Wait a couple of years.

ALEX
I'm a general contractor. And I am telling you that I don't, knowing you as friends, I don't know if you have space for just the amount of involvement that these things take. And in order to make it into what you truly deserve, just wait. Just wait. And when you have space for it in life.

PAT
I think if some, if I, if someone gave me a hundred million dollars, I don't think I would build my own house. I think I'd be happy in my own house, the house that I live in now. I don't want to go through. It's too stressful. And I actually know that I would probably fall into the trap that a lot of my clients do too, in hiring an architect that would design this thing and the budget would blossom. And it would get away from me because I'm a sucker for the stuff too.

ALEX
What a commentary though, right? Everything like, wait, let's not do this. If it was me, it would have happened 10 times. Yeah.

PAT
I mean, maybe that's why the cobbler's children has no shoes. Cause he knows. Yeah. He doesn't want to build it for the, there's a saying in, I dated an Egyptian gal in college and, her father was Egyptian. And, they have, there's a saying in Arabic that's similar to the cobbler's children. It's the carpenter's door is always squeaky. I can't say it in Arabic, but yeah, maybe that's why, because the carpenter knows what a pain in the ass it is to keep your door on squeaky. Yeah.

ALEX
Well, if I, so if I take this and that, maybe if I step back with that same question and I go, okay, imagine you're an owner's rep. I'm a potential client. And we were sitting down and I go, Pat, what key things should I be looking for to set me up for success in this project? Cause you kind of outlined, the project, the schedule parts and things like that, the outcomes.

PAT
Budget. Budget. Yeah.

ALEX
That we look for as a measurement of success. Well, if you were to just give advice to a client before they ever start, you want the expectation or you have the expectation of a successful outcome. This is what you need to prioritize.

PAT
I think it's interesting that you, I think they're first, the first thing they, those, these, client, these people that you've talked about here have done right is to hire an owner's rep. Oh, I have suggested that to every single one of my clients. I am a builder who wants an owner's rep because I know that there are so many, many, there's the list of things that need to be discussed and chosen and picked and decided and designed and, figured out throughout the process of putting a structure together. There are any kind of building together is so long and that OAC communication triangle is the importance of it, to have an owner's rep involved. I want someone checking me because I'm not infallible. I make mistakes all the time. and so, and I love the idea of having someone who is looking out over all looking over top of the OAC. I love that. No one's ever taken me up on it. maybe someday I'll become an owner's rep. Although I don't know if that would be as rewarding as that, as the relationships that I build in building something. I still get to going back to that, my rewards. It's about relationships. I still stand back when I look at projects and I still say I built that. I didn't lift a hammer, but I actually, I kind of built that. I can, I feel like I can legitimately say that. Can an owner's rep do that, say that? I don't know. Anyway, to answer your question more directly, I kind of was flying around all over the place on that. I think it's, and this is my job now as the builder is to set up the expectations of the client and setting up those expectations is the most important thing. And I think it's, I think it's trying to communicate, finding a way to communicate to the clients how challenging it's going to be. But I mean, if, but if you, it's a crazy game we play because if you were, if you're really, really honest about it, we'd talk everybody out of it. Like you talked your friends out of it because it's just too, it's too much depending on what, depending on what you're going with. I mean, who knows? A family member could get sick and who cares about the color of your countertops. You know what I mean? It's a hard one.

ALEX
I think both you and I listen to The Modern Craftsman podcast. Have you listened to the most recent one?

PAT
I have not.

ALEX
No, you definitely should. Cause they actually interview an owner's rep that has a national presence.

PAT
Do you know if he or she was a builder?

ALEX
He was not. He actually worked for a company, Bay something or other out of San Francisco. And I think that they handled like family assets and he specifically was doing a lot of the building and things like that for them.

PAT
For those families. Oh, so he learned about it.

ALEX
Yeah. And he was asked that question, or a little bit like, let's say more indirectly. In that he was asked who, how do the, does he see his clients choosing a builder? Cause they're consulting a little bit, but not saying hire this person at the same time. And he said that his advice to people was actually that, or, and what he's witnessed is that they hire based off a personality at the end. Cause he's like, at a certain level, everyone's qualified. Everyone's going to build some version of a beautiful home for you. There's, different variances and stuff like that, but at a certain level, the professionalism is there. I heard that. And I thought about something, referencing other lines that we've heard, but thinking about things my father would always tell me is that he's like, choose your subs carefully, choose your clients even more carefully. Because you're going to be with them for two, three, four, five years. That is a very long time to have a relationship with somebody. And if you think about even the most successful relationships I've ever had in my life over the course of five years, there's ups and downs. Things like that.

PAT
You learn a lot about someone in five years.

ALEX
And you're not passing back and forth several hundred thousand dollar checks on a monthly basis to, add some complication to it. And so, managing that from a professional perspective, I definitely have not figured out the answer. you learn it with time, how to communicate and things like that. But it brings it back full circle to me because, we talked about how it's all about relationships, right? But I mean, I know something else that you and I have talked about is even with subs. I think that the subs, I don't think I don't look at the numbers if any of my subs are listening to this. But the ones that we use repeatedly are because of the personality. It's the culture and things like that make it sustainable over time.

PAT
It's finding people that truly, truly care about their craft. That's and, my take on that is, you can find somebody who's three dollars less a square foot to install tile. But if he doesn't care about his craft and he's actually not going to be someone that I like to hang out with and be on the job site with for three months, then it's worth three dollars a square foot to pay extra.

ALEX
100 percent. 100 percent.

PAT
Yeah. One of the things that I actually pride myself in. Is in the relationships is the feedback I get from clients when they start to love my subs. When they come on to the job sites a lot and they end up writing bonus checks to the framers. That's happened on a lot of my projects. the clients are enjoying the process enough that weekly they're bringing pastries and pizza. that's and there was a project I did. And. Out on Cherryvale. That client was on site. It was the first of those big five. I was sorry. It was the middle of those five year projects. Those three five year projects I did. And that client was on site every day, all day. And at the beginning I said, oh boy, here we go. This is going to be. And she ended up being knowing as much about construction that I as I do. And she was wonderful. And she loved the relationship part and loved hanging out with all the people.

ALEX
That's incredible.

PAT
Yeah. It was really. So I've actually been blessed with I really have been blessed with some pretty incredible, absolutely incredible clients. And I don't know. There's only one time where I know I remember saying, you know what, I'm not this whole process of the bidding process. We had been chosen. The client relationship. Yeah. There was only one client that I had. We had been chosen for the job and we were in budget discussions to the point where the design was a little bit more than they wanted to spend. And so we went through a value engineering process and through that process in. we had done that. We had done the interviews and we've been choosing everything, like I said. But through the value engineering process, some red flags were raising about this client. And Tom Stanko and I decided, you know what, we probably shouldn't work with this couple. This is not going to turn out well.

ALEX
I mean, the reality is, if you're doing business long enough, you are, I also hear that. And I don't, I think it needs to be said that I don't think that's a criticism because I've walked away from projects before where I feel like somebody actually almost took it a little personally in one. And it was not. I'm sure that wasn't either. It's just more so saying it's okay not to be a good fit. That's okay. If anything, that's just an honest way of doing business. Yeah. And I sometimes wish people would be a little bit more transparent about that because it's, we don't need to force a round peg into a square hole here. There's enough fish out there for us all to eat at the end of the day.

PAT
And, it makes me, it reminds me that every single, because everybody's different, every single project is different. My first, my introduction to that big 16,000 square foot house I was telling you about, the client there, I remember saying to him, sky's the limit. He could have whatever he wanted. He's building this incredible house. And I said, what kind of species of wood do you want to see on the ceiling of your primary bedroom? And he said, he looked at me and said, I have no idea. You need to ask the architect. And I realized at that point that I had found myself in this level of home building that these clients have commissioned someone for their design. you and I come from a design background. I couldn't imagine hiring a designer to design my own house. Because it comes real natural to you and I. We do it all day, every day. It was, it's in our, it's in our DNA somehow. A lot of, I think we are an anomaly. A lot of people have not a clue, even what a species of, that there are different species of wood even. Yeah. Let alone which color, what.

ALEX
And then envisioning it.

PAT
And try to envision that. Yeah. So they just give it up to the architect. And that's totally different. Cause every client's on it, that's extreme. And then there are clients that know what they want. Like the other project where that woman was on site. She knew exactly what she wanted. This was not her first rodeo. She'd built dozens of houses. Her mom was a general contractor. She'd grown up around it. so she knew exactly what she wanted. And so it was enjoyable to have her on site because she could talk to us. She spoke that language that I've talked about before. And she knew what she wanted and she, the architects were there, really there just for broad strokes. but so there's a lot, there's again, a million points, an infinite number of points on those lines of different types of clients. And then there's different types of architects. And then, so you, and different, and that architect will hire different types of consultants. There's structure engineers. And so, all those infinite points on all those different lines come together for every job being totally unique. And that's one of the, I think that's an exciting part about our job descriptions is, our heads have to be on swivels. And we do that on several jobs at the same time, going on at the same time every day. And that's exciting and it's fun. It's challenging and it's fun and it's, and it can be frustrating too at times.

ALEX
I was just talking to my father about this and, we were actually talking about how building has changed and cause he's always fascinated to hear what I'm going through and stuff like that.

PAT
It's changing every day.

ALEX
And he said that it was really, cause I was talking, on one project that we had going on at the time, I was, the architect was really relying on us to facilitate shop drawings. Yeah. coordinating feasibility and things like that. And then I have another project where it is don't know too much. And it's not that hard to wear those different hats. You just have to know appropriately. But he was saying that that's the new age of building in that, the builder has to be able to be both of those things, potentially on two projects at the same time. Whereas he was like, he's like, I just took marching orders. And that was it. And I said, well, sometimes I'm an asset to people where they're able to utilize it and it helps them be focusing on what they should be focusing on. Other people don't need that. But he's like, yeah, I never had to deal with that in his career, at least he's, he was like, I more so if it was on the print, it was my job to make that stand up tall. That was his thing. And I don't know if that was necessarily your experience, but I have even felt that the role of the builder and it's evolved in the past 10 years for me personally. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it will continue to, frankly, as well.

PAT
Yeah, more and more so. And I think, that builder that I mentioned that I worked on that, the third of the three, a third of the five year projects that I worked on, the MIT guy, he had no flexibility at all. And that's why he struggled relationship wise with all, everyone, architect, the architect changed in the middle of the five years. That was a challenging one because of relationship issues between the builder and him. I was just a supervisor on the job. And so he had no flexibility. He was not malleable at all. He was like, it's my way or the highway. I said to him when he interviewed me for the job, I said, it sounds like maybe you've got some control issues. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. I'm in control and there's no issues. Like, okay, good. Yep. Got it. But I learned a ton from him.

ALEX
Yeah. A ton. Yeah.

PAT
I mean, I try, I think maybe to keep myself sane, I say it's exciting and rewarding to be, to keep my head on a swivel and try to, navigate all of these changes and all the different clients. maybe just to keep myself sane, I say it's exciting, but it, but I, it's also, I'll say it again. It's also challenging.

ALEX
It's also very, very challenging.

PAT
I, there's some days that I'm like, what am I doing? What am I doing?

ALEX
Oh, I know. I know I've joked with my wife. I'm like, there's so many other easier ways to make money. For better or worse. I love building things and making them. Yeah.

PAT
Yeah. I don't do it for the money. I mean, the money's great. There's very little that I want for, but it is, it's ultimately the reward at the end of being involved with this thing. Because I think we all know, even the guy pushing the broom knows this is hard. It's hard work for him and it's hard work for architects and structural engineers. And it's hard work for the guy cleaning out the port-a-john. Every bit of this thing is hard.

ALEX
And I think there's a real identity that comes along with it too.

PAT
Yeah. There's like a shared struggle. We've been through war together.

ALEX
I had to come to terms with this deep part of me that just is, all I know is how to make stuff. And, there's so many things to make in this world. It doesn't just have to be a house. But my skillset on how to make things is best aligned. And my experience is on how to make houses. And at the end of the day, I've said this to my children, that we are a family of makers and whether we like it or not. And it just becomes part of who you are. And I don't know if I could do something else. If I wanted to.

PAT
I will say to touch on that, to expand on that a little bit, actually, there are three things that I do in my life, four things, that things slow down. So if I'm riding a mountain bike, I'm snowboarding, and if I'm in the shop building something, and now, maybe it's five things, now when I'm at my desk in my office and I've got my phone and I've got my computer and I'm calling and I'm scheduling and I'm doing and I'm moving, something happens when I'm playing with my kids. Something happens, the whole world slows down. Like, you know what it's like on a mountain bike. It's like you're doing 45 miles an hour down a single track and everything slows down and it's like, oh, I'm just, I can do this. It all comes together. And I'm starting to find when I get in a rhythm, when I get in the groove, when I'm getting in the zone, when I'm building, you feel like an orchestra on site and there's steel flying across over here and there's guys over there laying out a wall and there's people building windows in a shop in Canada. you've got all these things happening all at once and you've been in the orchestra around it and it all slows down and it's, that's like the, that's when you're, when I'm in the zone like that, that's the most exciting part about it. And, another piece of that is, having cultivating the, a successful relationship with all the players is another piece of the puzzle of that thing slowing down and all coming together. That's, it's exciting. It's just a community. Yeah, it's a community. That's a great way to put it.

ALEX
As we're wrapping up here, just because of how passionate I know you are about this, I have to ask if there's something you, that's at the top of your mind, because I know you're like me at the, your mind's just thinking about this building trend or whatever random thing it is at all points in time. And is there anything that's on your mind that you want to dive into for a moment before?

PAT
I think, one of the things that, and I'm, one of the things that I've always thought about in building these ultra custom homes, which I like to say, I put the cuss in custom. One of my, I think about putting that on a t-shirt.

ALEX
There you go.

PAT
Is how to apply, I've not done much commercial stuff, is how to apply commercial techniques to residential, ultra custom residential building in the name of, building five-year homes. Like a lot of people don't want to spend five years. That's one of the things I legitimately like talk people out of. Like, you sure you want to spend five years building a house? Your kids who are 12, who you're spending a lot of money on these, on suite bedrooms for them, are going to be in college by the time this house is done. I don't know if you realize that. I'm not going to have done the math here. But so apply, so I'm always trying to make efficient the process. And I now, in the last year, because of a project I'm doing now in Arapahoe, is a commercial project. I got my commercial license. And so now I'm literally dipping my toe into the commercial waters and getting to apply commercial techniques in discussions with subcontractors and the architects and the designers and all kinds of things. So I continue to pursue commercial techniques to residential. And a spoke in the wheel of that, I think, is CLTs. The last project, the last residential project I did had a CLT roof. They were fabricated in Austria. We went through an incredible shop design process and CNC'd in Austria, shipped over. We had a tower crane on site and we boomed CLTs on the roof. And the architect cracked the code of thin roofs, big long cantilevers with a thin roof with these CLTs. But what I really, really enjoyed, while there was a premium to pay for the product, for the materials, what I really, really appreciated about the CLTs was in two weeks, the roof was in. Yeah. And done. Didn't save a dime. There's probably a $200,000 premium for this product.

ALEX
But the time. Schedule costs.

PAT
Schedule costs.

ALEX
Yeah, time is money.

PAT
Time is money for sure. And so, and I'm sure there's smarter people than I working on it, but I would like, I will pursue the use of CLTs. The challenges that I had with the CLTs on this residential project was the coordination of MEP and thermal. So I'm sure people have worked through those problems. I didn't have time because I was sort of learning in situ at the time, in the field. But that's something I am looking forward to pursuing further.

ALEX
Are you familiar with panelization?

PAT
So my, I have a project coming up where we had, the architects had suggested using a company out of New Mexico. We met with them. We did a Zoom call. I looked at the simplicity of the house and I crunched the numbers and I said, we could build those on site and skip the whole, skip the whole, ship them up here.

ALEX
It's interesting because I have a real interest long-term about it. And I think this might touch on a soft spot for you because I think that framing, the, finding good framers nowadays is 10 times harder than it was just a few years ago. And, even more so from years past, I think that problem is only going to become exacerbated over time. And I actually think that it's interesting right now because most of the, I think [the panel company], they do a lot of passive style things. And while I think that's great, I think that there's a massive custom market in the middle of that. And it's actually part of the reason why I'm so interested in double stud construction because I look at it as in, we're going to take the framing trade and put it in a standard environment. And imagine if you could just prefab and, like 16, 18, there's different, like what methods of doing it, just the exterior walls of that house. I think back in the day, it got a really bad rap for being inaccurate. It was like multi-unit type stuff, but then the technology has completely changed. If it meant that in these ski towns, for example, which are very short building seasons.

PAT
Yes. You could slap them up in a week. Yeah.

ALEX
And then you still use the double stud to get your flatness factor. Cause I've been, talking to a few people across the country on some of their experiences using more traditional panelization. Yeah. They've said that then to hit the tolerances on the finish level was a little bit hard. And so I thought, what if you just close the envelope with panelization and then still rely on the double stud to get your flatness.

PAT
Yeah. And perfection. Yeah.

ALEX
And what's interesting is a lot of the stuff in Europe is currently being done that way. So I think it's an evolution that will come here. But I think that, as with a lot of other technologies I've witnessed in building, you have to convince people of the merit before they'll start designing. Cause some of the feedback I was told is that you have to design with the panelization in mind from the beginning. Because then you can't pivot back. Once you get too far. And so unless you can start to convince people of the value, you almost have to like show, proof of one concept type of thing. But I do think that is the future of building and CLT is going to be part of that as well.

PAT
Yeah. I think you're totally right. I think, I, that's a little bit outside of my wheelhouse. The architects typically come to be and they've already had those discussions. Although that project in Eldorado Springs that's coming up for me, they brought to the table, [the panel company]. And I loved, that's why I love being involved. Yeah. Doing schematics and, or even, DD or even schematics to have my input. and those clients, these are repeat clients for me. Actually, I built their first house and now they're downsizing. Their kids are all grown and gone and now they're downsizing. And so the architects brought [the panel company] to the table and I said, we looked at it. Like I said, we met with [the panel company] on the Zoom call and I said, we can do the same thing right here on site and not have to employ people in New Mexico. We can do it right here.

ALEX
Yeah. I mean, and also, because I've heard good things about [the panel company], but it doesn't mean it's a perfect fit for every project. I mean, some things have been done a hundred years for a reason.

PAT
Yeah. I'm a big, I'm a huge proponent of the, of green building and stuff. I'm a LEED AP from 2000 and 2000, year 2000, I got my LEED accreditation.

PAT
Anyway.

ALEX
I appreciate this.

PAT
This is fun. This is super fun.

ALEX
I know we could go forever.

PAT
We could talk for another 10 hours.

ALEX
I know. I know. It's a problem. It's awesome. But no, I appreciate it. it's nice to not only just resonate, but I've told you this before, I just appreciate your perspective and things and have an immense amount of respect for the way you're approaching and all your accomplishments. So thanks for coming in and doing this.

PAT
Thank you, Alex. It's an honor to be here. I appreciate you doing this. This is a cool, this is very, this is, I love spreading the word. Gospel of ultra custom home building.

ALEX
Yeah. I, hopefully I get to do it more consistently.

PAT
Cool. Thank you.