JEFF
And where are you, where do you build?

ALEX
So mostly Boulder, if you're familiar with Colorado. Okay. Yeah. I live in a little town called Lyons. I'm originally from a small town outside of Cleveland, and so this, Boulder's the big city to me. And, me and my wife made our way to a little smaller town about 15 minutes north called Lyons, which is If you've ever gone up to the national park, it's right on the way, see. But

JEFF
God, I've never been to Boulder. -I've gotten close. I was in Granby, a few times. That's about as close as I got.

ALEX
I was actually, because I have your book here, which we can obviously get into, but I was looking specifically at that house. And, because, and we can touch on this section maybe at a later point again. But it's just fascinating to me because your style as a whole feels so Colorado centric to me. Yet when I've most of the people that I work with actually, what we, I think they would define as the new Colorado modern that's becoming more dominant is very, eaveless more in those modern centric, a very different avenue. But I think we both have a very strong, I think place in this, the environment. Anyways.

JEFF
Yeah, I love it up there. I love working up there.

ALEX
Yeah. It's a really unique place too because. I don't think I've ever done a project for somebody that is originally from Boulder. Yeah. Yeah. Which just changes because, the nuances, the tone, from people from different areas. Somebody from California versus the East versus the Midwest. Everyone does business and builds and tells their story a little bit differently, I think. And so it keeps you on your toes.

JEFF
Yeah. I bet.

ALEX
Yeah. I have to ask, do you go by Jeffrey or Jeff?

JEFF
Yeah, Jeff.

ALEX
Jeff? Okay. Yeah, 'cause I'm obviously Alexander, but only two people around anymore still call me that.

JEFF
That's the way it is with me, yeah. Only my mom and people that don't know me very well yet, call me Jeffrey. I have a few clients, and they just like Jeffrey, and they said, "Can we just call you Jeffrey?" I said, "That's Yeah, that's my given name," so I'll absolutely answer to that.

ALEX
That's funny. Nobody had called me Alex or Alexander in a very long time after I moved from Ohio, and she just started calling me it the first day we met. And, at first it felt a little bit odd, but then after a little while it felt wrong if she called me anything other than that. And then it just stuck. Yeah. So in one world I get I was in trouble, in the other one it's when her reminding me how much she loves me. Yeah. Well, a little bit of background on what this podcast Was originally intended to be. Okay. I think I have a little bit of a unique upbringing. I was the son of an immigrant. My grandfather, actually, when they originally came over from Europe, they were brought up, cliche, during war times. Didn't speak English, needed a way to, make a living. And so he actually got brought in by a fellow, European family, got taught carpentry, then ended up becoming a builder. And so that became my father then got involved in that and then myself as well. I then actually broke off at one point in time, kinda dipped my toe into the commercial world, which was torturous yet incredibly insightful as well, and valuable. And I then went off to college. Pursuing a business degree, which

JEFF
Where'd you go to college?

ALEX
Ohio State.

JEFF
Okay. I was thinking you could have gone to Colorado, I guess, 'cause it's there not too far from Boulder, right?

ALEX
No, but I, so I actually, after I sold my first company, sold, I actually then moved to New Zealand for a couple years, and I lived in Queenstown, in Wanaka, and I did some development there with a gentleman from Napa. And, that's actually how I ended up getting back into Yeah. I, but when I came back, I actually thought I wanted to be an architect. And. Yeah, which makes me, let's say a resource for some, annoying potentially to others which I'm very aware of. But it was because I've always had this love of design, and I, but I think that since my roots were so dug into the trades, everyone has a lens, and I was very aware of mine from the beginning. And this podcast was this, let's call it realization for me that everyone is looking for somebody's expertise, but I always find it interesting in the consumer journey of building a home. Obviously you can't have everyone, having the customer's ear, let's say, or the client's ear. But the place people look for that expertise is often not directed as well as it could be. I think that there's s So I wanted to give a microphone to the designer, the builder, the finish carpenter, all the way down to the person sweeping the floors, 'cause I thought that that person, a valuable member of the team towards building that end product, probably has some insights as to what they see being most successful, for the, the evolution of a project, and we could all learn from each other. And it's been really fascinating because the one takeaway from the podcast that I did not expect is just how much I would learn, from all of these different characters. But. How

JEFF
Long you been doing the podcast?

ALEX
Almost two years now. But, it's not like this is I still have to run the business, be a father, and do all sorts of other things.

JEFF
Yeah. You're not a full-time podcaster.

ALEX
Yeah, no. That's,

JEFF
That's good.

ALEX
It's also a great way to meet people. There's just so much talent, I feel like, in the Front Range and, ski towns of Colorado as well. But I was actually listening to some of your interviews, reading through your book, which I really enjoyed the essays. And, it made me think of this concept in connection with these different things, specifically that I've been really interested in, and I think it might be a great launching point for our conversation. It's the idea of the furniture maker, and that oftentimes the a furniture maker is designing it, they're also making it with their own hands, and it's this symbiotic relationship where one feeds the other, one elevates the other. But I think that once we get beyond the threshold of a piece of furniture, which obviously can be very complex, it is a very different thing than building a house, especially in today's day and age. The reality to me is that it just takes so many people, so many different businesses, so many different experts to build these incredibly complex homes we have now. But I think back to the furniture maker, and I think how the expertise of those with their hands still feeds the development of the design. And when I look at your work, I think of it as being so visceral, is a word that comes to my mind, frankly. And as somebody that grew up in the trades, it feels like there's a real hands-on approach. And so I'd be interested if how the expertise of the people that you've worked with have maybe they influence your design or, how the flow of that works in the creative process.

JEFF
Wow. I feel like there's 25 different directions you could kinda go, from that, sort of thought line of thought. I think furniture is fascinating and, I think at the end of the day, what I really love about, this idea is, that something is, that we make even though, a chair may be, made by one pair of hands and a home is made by hundreds and hundreds of sets of hands, in the final view of our homes that we're involved with. The best ones feel handmade. There's something about it that feels, that sort of bears the marks of the hands that made it. Even with food, like I l. I love to eat and There's, there's bread and there's rolls, but I can tell if it came off a truck Or if somebody made it right there, by the texture of it, by the way when break it, how it acts. And that's just, a daily, experience of having lunch or having dinner. And I want that kind of touch, and look and feel to be present in the houses. And I'm sitting at one right now that definitely has that vibe even as I'm just looking at it. It's, We've been here for a couple days, and it just, it just feels good and it's thoughtful. It's so well built, but there's something, imperfect, I think, about it. And I think it's that imperfection that to me feels human, and I really like that. There's just enough wiggle in it, and the builder would cringe if, he heard me say that, 'cause they're trying to make it all perfect. But, it definitely has that feel. I think it's a little bit of the design can help it feel that way. In the way we approach the design, there's lots of opportunities for the craftsmen to show off. And, we were at dinner with the, with our clients, the owners last night, and they were saying how much the carpenters and some of the craftsmen have said how much they enjoyed, building it because they were proud of it, because it gave them opportunities to learn and in some cases do some things that they don't normally get to do. And, that showcases their capabilities and, I think that's a really beautiful thing when that can happen. I'd love to be so thoughtful that. As I've moved forward in my design thinking that I'm literally, like, setting things up on purpose for that, for that to happen. But I think it. Fooled me I think it's, I think for me it's more about the details that I'm trying to bring out in places and then that creates an opportunity. And I use that word opportunity, loosely because so many times the builders look at it and the tradespeople look and, they come to a job site meeting and I feel like, my life may be endangered? Due to the level of fear and frustration sometimes that they're expressing on how they're gonna pull some of these things off. But,

ALEX
You're supposed to be a little afraid though, right?

JEFF
That's what makes it worth having at times. I think so. I think so, yeah. And it's the same for me. I, we get involved in projects sometimes and, it's a heavy lift, and you look at it and it's like, "Man, I don't know if I'm good enough to figure this out." But, once you have sort of, over the course of the design, once you have sort of figured it your chest sticks out a little further 'cause you're so pleased that you were able to rise to the occasion.

ALEX
Yeah. You've obviously built all over, in some places probably a little more remote. Yes. Especially in regards to access to different skilled laborers and things like that that might be in other places.

JEFF
Yeah, for sure.

ALEX
Does that influence how you Draw something?

JEFF
Yeah. I mean, it has to. If I'm in Costa Rica, or, Nova Scotia, it's just a different thing than if I'm in. Los Angeles.

ALEX
Know, it. That intimidates me as a builder incredibly so. I, a couple years ago I was asked to, if I was interested in a project right outside of Aspen, and at first I hear Aspen, I get excited. Like how, what cool thing are we going to build? And then I thought about, so much of what makes me good at what I do is, I've used the same trim carpentry company for seven years here. The owner of that company, or one of the owners, is one of my best friends, like a close friend of mine that helps me think through things that I'm not smart enough to. And I was like, "How could I set the same expectation for an outcome if I don't have that same team elevating me as the builder?" And so I actually ended up saying that I didn't think it was a smart move for me to be interested in that project despite it being, something shiny at the top of the mountain for lack of a better metaphor. And but I've always been fascinated by the design world because you can be a little bit more iterative with geography than somebody in my position. Yeah. And, 'cause when I look at some of your work, obviously there's a deep connection to its surrounding. Yeah. The actual physical landscape. I think one of your essays, specifically context, I wrote down some note about, notes about where clearly one hand is influencing the other in its development. That process, is, are there people on the ground that you're kind of getting that insight from? Or is there like a creative process you've established that's allowed for you to do that?

JEFF
It's maybe a little bit of both. The, I think we've done design work, in thirty-five states. And we've, designed and built things in eight foreign countries and territories, which I really love that about. That's one of my favorite parts and about, And in some ways that's, that idea is, what the second book that you're, you've been enjoying is kind of about. Is, how of a southern American architect has learned the, what I call the building traditions of, and languages that are associated with those building traditions. And I'm still using that word not literally, although in some cases it is literal. But there's a language of architecture that if you really dial it in, it's, largely A result of a particular culture. And, when we say culture, a lot of times you think I'm talking about Italy or Britain or, some foreign country, and that's certainly the case. But there's a whole bunch of distinct dialects and cultures just within the United States of America. I'm from the South. We're very proud of, being, in the South, and we have a certain kind of culture that comes, from a lot of, a lot of places. But so in the same way, in the Northeast, that's a whole, that's a whole different ballgame. And then where you are in the West, that's a different culture. And then, you get out on the West Coast in California and there's sort of subcultures. Depending on where you are. And what I've really enjoyed doing, and you talked about the learning process and what you've learned from, the enjoyment of learning, new things and new ideas from, this experience of doing the podcast. It's a similar thing that I've been able to, sort of delve into when I'm building out West. I've studied, the kind of the indigenous kind of architecture that was there in the past, especially in how it relates. It always relates to the climate. The climate is always such a driver of, we practice architecture in places that have hurricanes. That's a very different kind of construction that you, that we've found that works really well there. I go to California and you've got all these seismic, kinds of issues that come about. And then you've got, the roof lines and the eaves and the overhangs, and then the materials. I love to work in stone. That's great, but there's a lot of places in, that we work where stone's just not really readily available. I mean, these days, you can put anything on a truck or a boat and, work with it. But I want to do houses that are good neighbors, and so I always want to do houses that, in a way, fit in to the landscape, and you touched on that, but also fit into that culture. But then, you have So you have to sort of study the rules so maybe where you wanna break the rules a little bit,? Because, I think that's what's kind of fun is to bring in some idea that I learned working in Central America into a project in California, and it actually turns out that it fits. Because the climate in a lot, in those, a lot of those places is, has a similarity, and there's reasons why they did certain things. And it's like, I haven't seen this done here and I think it would be really neat to incorporate some of this approach, or maybe some of this materials or a certain detail. And, I don't know if I answered your question,

ALEX
But No, I, it's act very fascinating to hear that, 'cause being from the Cleveland area originally, specifically a town called Shaker Heights, which was developed by Rockefeller, Carnegie back in the day, and you can imagine, I think it was actually the wealthiest town in America during those boom times for a brief stint, and the spread of styles, let's say, that exists within these just few specific streets is really fascinating. My father was working on a lot of those homes for a very long time, and as they got upgraded, the thing to do at a certain point was mid-century modern was coming through, and so then there was all these giant overhanging eaves on everything. And it was this opportunity to, be a little bit more creative for people. But then when I got out to Colorado, everything was transitioning to this eaveless assembly, and to me that was this crazy thing. Like, what do you mean? Yeah. And then, to tie into, are you just asking for water to leak? And then, tying to what you said, when you think about the climate, well, it doesn't really rain that much, for better or worse here. We have more sunny days than Southern California apparently. And you could get away with that here, whereas it was actually driving the style of a lot of the mid-century modern, older classical homes that we worked on in Ohio. It was a, it was a means of making it sustainable over the test of time, not just, trying to hit an aesthetic. But, one leads to the other. Which is

JEFF
Always fascinating. 100%. I think, the whole thing about that particular detail that you touch on is, it's, to me it's, it has a, it has a place. It, there's times when I think it's wonderful to use that, but I think it's also not only about, You talked about rain, it doesn't rain much there. But the sun there is An absolute beast because it's coming through so much less of the atmosphere, it's so much more intense than it is even in the south, where we got some major heat. And I think it's in exactly, for those exact reasons that, an overhang is there to not only has to do with the way you deal with the storm water, from rain or from snow, but the light, and you can have too much light coming into a room, and the heat gain and the, And it's too bright, and the overhang is such a wonderful tool to help control that. And, if you do your research and you're designing the thing, and you get to lay it out, to some degree the way you want to, we all love a lot of glass and a lot of windows, but that also creates the backside of that coin is you're setting yourself up to have, if you're not careful, a really miserable situation with way too much heat, way too much light at certain times of the day. And the simple eave is such a great way. There's been tons of books written about passive solar design. It was huge back in the '70s. And, but they didn't invent it. That was invented two, 300 years ago, maybe longer than that by, non-architects, farmers People that, were building with without design skill, but they knew how to understand where the sun was gonna be at different times of the day, and how to bring that in in certain times of the year, in the wintertime, especially when you want the light and the warmth, but protect from it, in the other times. And to me, that idea of, well, we're gonna be modern and we're gonna, not have eaves if you think that through, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a lot of, in a lot of places. There's a more thoughtful design answer, and, if you wanna be modern, that's fine. You can still do that with a big eave.

ALEX
Well, it's especially interesting around here 'cause I'm finding, especially over the last few years, that energy code is just evolving so rapidly here. Right. Especially on the very modern things. We've done the eaveless countless times. It's the design aesthetic But then it's getting harder to do the big window packages and still meet energy code around here. And so I just recent actually up on the ridge, kind of you can see it from my office here there's a house that'll start in a couple months, and the client had reached out to me, and he's like, "Why are we spending so much time calculating all these models of how far the eaves the overhang over the deck and these doors should be going and, these, solar analyses and stuff?" And my response to him was to actually send him, I've enjoyed doing video, as a way of kind of annoying people that do my marketing and things. And I sent him this video of somebody taking a light on the outside of the window in order to create this beautiful scene that looks like But they manufactured that using a light. And I said, "We are gonna do this with your house, except we're just gonna enjoy the sun." And as soon as I sent him that, he's like, "I get it. Continue on." 'cause I want that. I want that beautiful cascading shadow at this time of the year through my living room and all that. Yeah. And I think that people don't realize that, while we can only move the house in certain directions maybe because of site limitations and things I think the eave is something that offers so much agency in the way somebody experiences a space. But it's, one style can lend itself more to that than maybe another, and it's interesting.

JEFF
Well, to me, that's really where I think a lot of people, feel this way. You, to I think it's, I think it's reasonable to sort of flag that and go, "Wait, your decision point is over here on this aesthetic judgment that you're gonna make, this unilateral decision," and then just turn a blind eye to everywhere that that doesn't work worth of shit. Yeah. On this house. And to me, that's, I mean, that's fine, I guess, if you wanna, be naive. But I feel like, architects are paid to not act that way. And they should be capable enough and talented enough to be like, "Okay, I'm trying to work in this style, but how can I adapt that style to these conditions that are real-life conditions that my client, my poor unsuspecting client, is gonna be miserable in in certain times of the year or certain times of the day inside this room I'm creating, because I'm gonna ignore reality?"

ALEX
Hearing you say that actually reminds me of a podcast I had recorded with a friend, a local architect here, Nick Fiore of FLOWER architecture, and we specifically spoke about the ego and its role in building, owning a business, designing, and how I think that there's a very healthy need for it to really, assert a creative process at, to some level. But then there's also a humility that's required on the other end of that that offers some balance to maybe come into exactly what you're just describing and say, instead of just conforming to these bounds, how do we adapt in order to deliver the best version of something? I think that as long as that goal is to find the best version of an outcome, the ego can maybe stand by something, drive it home, if you really believe in it, but it also has to be willing to bend. And oftentimes I think that's where, like, the true creative process comes through.

JEFF
I think so. I agree with you, 100% about that. I'm not trying to talk about the book, but I think I'm using it as an example in this case. If you flip through that what I hope one thing that kind of comes through is, like, look at the styles of those houses. It's not all the same. They're all reacting to a set of circumstances where the house was built, if it was in London or if it was in Canada or if it was in California or if it was in, Tennessee. And the architecture is reacting to that. So look at all the different languages that I've been able to sort of channel and learn from. And to me, that's a lot more work than, "Well, I've got this style, and this is my style, and now I'm going to apply that unilaterally and blindly to every single condition-" I don't know how a thinking person could decide that that was a good, course to take.

ALEX
There's a specific, designer that comes to my mind that's local that I think that people seek them out for this, like, they have a very specific product. And I recognize that, not everyone's supposed to be everyone's I'm not supposed to be everyone's builder or else I'm blowing smoke in the wrong direction. Yeah. And, an architect, I think, can probably say the same. But they get hired for that very reason, and because of that, they're very formulaic to a certain extent. And at first I used to criticize that, but I also understood that, like, that is a product that somebody sees value in and it has a very appropriate place. But, I think that my experience having one thing that my father specifically specialized in was, these early 1900s homes in Shaker Heights, Ohio that I referenced before. A lot of those moldings were made by hand, and so the historical society. I love

JEFF
That

ALEX
And so you could imagine, and I specifically looked at the Granby house and I said, as a, growing up as a finished carpenter before I was allowed to open my mouth on a job site, I don't know whether to be excited about some of those details or know how hard it is to make it look, intentionally unintentional, is kind of where my mind was as a carpenter. Yeah. How hard that but watching my dad try to match these hand-carved moldings in modern methods, I think that when I then do projects that have museum base in a very modern setting, it's fascinating to me because my thought process on how to sequence that is influenced by having watched him in those more classical, old settings, and I don't think that I would have the approaches that I do now, not having dipped my toe in those other waters? If you're too laned for one too long, I think you become blind to the others. And so yeah. It's interesting to hear that.

JEFF
I love what you said about the, handmade moldings. I had this molding I was working on. It was a really interesting I had, like, a whole wall of glass and, that we had designed for this. It was kind of a, it was based off of a certain pattern, that was almost like a random ashlar type pattern. And, I had all these molds between all these windows, and the windows were all different shapes, but the molds were consistent I wasn't just gonna slap a one by on this wall. Like it was a real, focal point of the room. And, I fooled around and I found this piece of trim that I had, on, an old English, banquette, like, It was like a serving piece. And I literally like popped it off. It was a little section. I popped it off, and I started measuring it like with a micrometer. And I'm drawing this thing, and every time I drew it, I was like, "It doesn't look like that. What's wrong with this?" And I finally figured out that the, that that piece was like a hundred and fifty years old. And as I studied that little section of molding that was gonna become It was like a belly button, and it kinda had these other lines in it. It wasn't consistent because it wasn't made with a machine. It was made with a dude with a A blade, and he was carving that thing out, and And as I, and as I measured it, I found all the places where it was off from itself. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, no wonder I love this thing," 'cause it's wonky. And it's fluid. But it was Until I was measuring it like to the sixteenth or a thirty-second of an inch, I didn't know that it was off. And, I finally just had to settle on some close approximation 'cause obviously we weren't gonna make it in that way. We were gonna have a, a knife made Yeah to this shape. And, but it was just such When I finally realized that I wasn't mismeasuring it. It was that it was not made by a machine, and so therefore it was not perfect. And I, in my twenty-first century brain, born in nineteen sixty-five, couldn't fathom it that it was, a hundred and fifty years old, and they didn't make things that way back then.

ALEX
There was a client of mine in Shaker Heights. It was one of the last projects that I did before having left an incredibly it was a client that was almost a mentor to me. My father was lucky enough to have worked for maybe eight families his entire career. It just happened to be that he worked for one generation, then the next, and then the next. But those eight families were kind of all of it, and then one of those gentlemen was just always incredibly kind to me, and also just a very cerebral person, and he had this older home. And I remember working through the project with him, and he at one point in time touched on this, I'm gonna mess up the name, but it's a Japanese principle that something is more beautiful for having been broken than if it if it was perfect before. It's

JEFF
Kintsugi.

ALEX
Kintsugi, that's right. Yes. And he told me that that's what he wanted specifically, is that he he loved his home because it was incredibly broken. I love that. That's the best and had owned it forever, but he wanted me to take my version of making it perfect without making it perfect. Just take it to the certain threshold where it still maintained the character of the home, and improve certain things that impacted how he experienced the space, but anything beyond that made it fake to him. And, which is what potentially looking back made that one of the harder projects I think I've ever undertaken.

JEFF
Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

ALEX
'Cause it's almost arbitrary and based off perception.

JEFF
It's because what you're actually creating is art. And it involves the intentional, ability to resist the urge of that perfection would demand. And, people I was just having this conversation just a few days ago with somebody, and they asked me if I was a perfectionist. They assumed that I was. I said, "I'm absolutely not a perfectionist." I don't believe in perfection. I believe in the perfectly imperfect And, I think it's, look, I'm not saying, that I don't want our houses to be, built with integrity and that I don't, enjoy, things that are built plumb and square. But I think beyond that structural, rigidity and integrity that's, that is important, I think that the things that we largely see and feel and touch, are much more human and much more alive and much more, emotive when they are, not perfect. Well, we work with some really good builders and, I've toured some houses that, when we're kind of interviewing builders or talking to them and they're, so proud of them, and I walk in and it's just like, "Oh my God, I feel like I'm inside a machine." And to that's not, it's not all their fault. It's really more in the design. But, in the between the design and then their relentless execution of the design, it's just, there's not much room for humanness.

ALEX
Well, it's like wine, right? In one of my other lives when I was in New Zealand, I was selling wine briefly. And I learned that. The ability of people to really taste the, what somebody else tastes in a glass of wine or a bottle, so subjective, and oftentimes it's maybe too subjective. Frustrating. But the one Yeah. But I found that the story made that glass of wine taste different for people. And I learned that if you could articulate the story of how that was either made or how it was supposed to make them feel It was freeing for people in a way, 'cause it allowed them to experience it a little bit differently.

JEFF
They could step into the story. They could relate to the story. There was something that resonated, with them about the story, and it made it something that was now relatable To them. That's, that is, that's really interesting. I love the, I love the whole thing about story and the power of words and all that, but I've never heard it associated to wine in that way. But as soon as you said it, there's a somm. He's o one of my favorite, somms and, he always, he does a great job with the story. You can't wait to try this wine when he tells you the story. And he always has a story. And I swear I tease him all the time. I say, "You're just making this shit up."? And y. I do think he embellishes sometimes, but it's such a good story. And, whether it's the placebo effect of that or not, the wine always tastes pretty doggone good.

ALEX
There you go. There's a local woodworker here in town, Mark Hunter, incredibly talented. He's had the And he's a fascinating person. He's a true he's what I, a perfect balance of artist, craftsman. W he works with Renée del Gaudio, who's an ar a local architect here who's, producing some really awesome stuff. He's just a fascinating person to talk to about his process. But he was recently working on this project called Meeker, where he, in his little wood shop here, he video documented the entire process of him making these white oak doors for the home, all the moldings he made, all the cabinets he made in his little shop, and he sent them off almost as a vlog to the clients that obviously live out of state. And he at first said he didn't know if this was just foolish, but he just thought that he, he felt so connected to this process and, there's so many hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours that he has into figuring out every little detail and how to make, he, He was taking dovetail joinery and making it work into functional countertops so that, all these amazing things. And he said that when he first experienced the clients giving that feedback, that they were almost, yearning for it after a little while because it was the they experienced the cabinets. Yeah. It probably functioned almost the same as a majority of other high-end cabinetry. But they felt it differently. But

JEFF
They now had a connection to it. Yeah. Because they saw all of the thoughtfulness and all of the effort, but also the beauty of that. And, now that's not just a cabinet, that's their cabinet. And it's made for them, and they understood so much more about it. They probably felt like it was a member of their family in some strange way at the end of that. And then they'll tell that story At their cocktail parties or at Thanksgiving to their family about the carpenter that made it and, all of the different aspects of it that they would easily just sort of pass over if they, if he hadn't, been able to share that.

ALEX
I heard you say on and I'm, summarizing this, so correct me if I'm wrong in this. But that you're not really interested in just making a home for somebody else, a generic. That's not your product. More so you're interested in making something that's gonna change somebody's life. I don't know if it's something you measure maybe the success of a project by or not. But what does that mean to you to have a space. Change somebody's life? Because to me that sounds like a story.

JEFF
It is a story. But, I do mean it, in a literal way. And, I love it when you said something about measuring it. It would probably be, about as easy as for you to measure how you feel about your wife, as it would be to measure this aspect. But it when you feel it, and it when you see it, and it when you experience it, and nothing can take it away from you once you have experienced it. And, There's a lot. There's a lot to it. It's hard for me to even know kind of where to start about how you do It's in every it's really in everything. But I think probably a good place as any to start is with the result. The result, is the experience that, the people especially that it's made for have in how the light comes into it, how it makes you feel as you move through it, how one room gives you a certain sensation and another space gives you a slightly, a but noticeably different one. I like rooms that Make you feel like you've been given a hug. They feel cozy, they feel intimate. I like rooms that make you, feel small. And in a not in a negative way, but in a way of grandeur that there's a little pomp and circumstance, to to that space. And then some spaces that you just wanna cozy up with a cup of coffee and a book. And it also has to do with I try to design houses that is a little bit like being, living inside of a sundial, and they're calculated so that the sun is giving you one kind of a sensation in the morning because of the angle, because of the time of day, and also because of what you're doing at that time of day in the house. And then as the day moves on, the light also is shifting around, and now it's really almost erupting in this other room. And the light, the way the house is sort of calibrated, to receive the light, and the windows are organized in a way to, as a kind of a lens for the light to filter through. And understanding the different times of day and the different times of year, how the angle of the sun changes, and it's gonna come in in a very different way intentionally and thoughtfully in February than it does in July. It's pretty meaningful. And then there's all the materials and how all of those things, sort of support all of these ideas. Some things that are more tactile and textured, other things that are more sleek, and maybe even slightly shiny. All of these things create, emotional responses, or they can, in the user. And all of that is sort of choreographed in a way as much as you can to that place and to those people. Because people are different, and you also have to understand the nature of the people that are gonna live there and what they're about, and kinda what turns them on, and how they might react differently than someone else. Not totally different from your wine analogy. I mean, I'm no wine professional, but I love to have wine. And people that know maybe a little bit less about wine ask me questions about it sometimes and I always reassure people that like there's no wrong answer. Good is what tastes good to you. And everybody's palate is different. A lot of us, love a little bit more robust wine, a little bit more of an Italian wine. Other people like wines that are more delicate, a little bit more of a French wine, a little bit more of a Pinot. And then, there's the really confused people that like white wine. So, understanding the palate of, the user to me is the sort of the first job of the architect is to sort of look at these people. How do they dress? How do they talk? What are they, what are they about? And then what kind of house to make for them that's going to fit them and their lifestyle. And then of course you've got the place and all the rest of it. I'd say those are some of the things that I'm considering and some of the things that I'm after, in the work and to try to sort of respond to your question, which was such a good question, about What was that? How did you word that? Kind of what did I mean about, how'd you phrase that?

ALEX
When you articulate a house changing somebody's life that can mean so many different things, and it can manifest I think in so many different ways. Even just following the trajectory of, what you're describing there, my mind immediately just. How do you build a feeling for somebody? And, a feeling is different for every single person, clearly.

JEFF
It is. But, and you got to kinda figure out what kinda feeling is gonna be appropriate. It's really in some ways, I have to sorta zoom out and kinda just say, I wish, and maybe before I retire, either literally or figuratively I'll figure this out, where I can really dial it in so much that I can totally, control exactly the emotion that I'm trying to get. Sometimes I feel like, I'm a guy that's discovered this computer, but I don't know anything about computers, and I'm just pushing all the buttons on the computer to try to get it to do certain things. And when I see that, like, if I hit this key, I get this result, okay, then okay, I've figured that part out. But, I think in a certain way I know how something's gonna make me feel, and so I sort of play off of that, as I sort of think about the way, the vibe that we're trying to create and all that. But

ALEX
That's fascinating to hear too because, not that long ago I had a during especially like the DD of a project, it's always interesting as the builder, the appropriate level of involvement for us is so different on every different, on every project. But I'm, in some ways I'm also a sounding board, I feel, for the client on those early stages sitting on the outside, just observing. And I had a client that I could tell actually wasn't super thrilled about this design that I thought was beautiful, but she was communicating to me that she had some reservations and my question was, "Have you communicated that?" And her answer was very quickly no. And I said, "you have to understand that we're all building, designing for ourselves unless we are able to have you communicate in return to us what you actually do or don't want. Does this designer know that you don't want this feeling in this room?" Yeah. Right. I, and my advice was simply that, until you, there's this platform for communication to understand who the client is, it's by definition going to be designed for those making it. Right? And, nobody here is a mind reader.

JEFF
Right. But I while I'm not clairvoyant, I'm very intuitive. And I and I think that's probably a muscle that we, as architects, as designers, it's important for us to be able to sort of intuit, what is gonna be more likely well-received by this particular person because of the kind of person that they are. And, I laugh about this. I say this sometimes. I have a, I have a questionnaire that I give our clients early on, and it's called 20 Questions. And, there's a whole bunch of stuff in there. It's a little psychological, some of it, and some of it's just kind of blocking and tackling. But, it's really helpful to, see how they respond to certain questions and what they say. But one of my favorite ways to sort of read people is, just listen to 'em for five minutes and just see how they talk. And I really think that how people dress is such a, such an indicator. I've always loved fashion, and I think I was 14 or 15 years old, and I lived in Alabama. I'm a little country dude, but I had a, I had a, I got the GQ magazine, every month, 'cause it was just fascinating to me how style worked and everything, and But you can't ask people, "Well, what kind of just tell me what kind of person you are." Yeah. Because For a million different reasons, the feedback that you'll get will absolutely point you in the wrong direction. Because they're either going to tell you who they want you to think they are Or who they want other people to think they are, but not who they really are. Plus, we don't really see ourselves very well. So we have certain impressions. You got the id, the ego, and the superego, and all that kind of stuff. So it's really on you to kind of go, "Okay, what w if I can understand this person at a little bit of a deeper level and pay attention to some things, it's gonna enable me to reach into my toolbox and go, 'Oh, because they're like this or they entertain like this, they're probably gonna like some of these kind of materials and some of these kind of details and some of this kind of style.'" And then, I love it, this is my favorite part. It doesn't always happen, but when it's kind of getting to that point in the construction and they come to me and then they just have this look on their face like, "How did That we would like this?" And I'm like, "I didn't." but I'm a really good guesser, and that's basically how I got through college. And I just, I read you the best I could, and I made the best guesses that I could from what information I thought I was getting. And, we communicated and, along the way, and turns out we got some things right.

ALEX
Well, I wanna be sensitive with your time, 'cause I know you're very busy. But w I have to ask. I've, I love books. I probably buy way too many books. I've bought a bunch of architecture books over the years, and. Oh, I love books too half the time I read them though, and, I'm buying them for the pictures. Of course. Yours, I don't mean this as a position of flattery, but I actually enjoyed reading the essays that you had in there. And so

JEFF
That's awesome. You made my day.

ALEX
Oh. You can stop

JEFF
Talking now. I,

ALEX
I try. Every once in a while I I get lucky too. What was the This is your second book, right? W being as busy as you are, everyone ha makes time for things that they prioritize. What was the motivation for the book?

JEFF
Well, that's a great question. I'm not a writer, but I really have discovered that I really enjoy writing. One of my favorite concepts is that I write entirely to find out what I'm thinking. And it's so true, for I think all of us, is as you start to grapple with, I want to describe my feelings about the design concept called form, and and I start sort of writing this out, and I'm like, "I don't even think this is gonna make sense to anybody. Like, this seems, like, really personal, to me." And but I just kinda keep, you kinda keep going and you start to kinda cobble it together and then you start to have later on, you'll have other ideas. Oh, you'll hear something somebody said about something and you'll think, "That really goes well with what I was trying to explain over here." And so you s you sort of build this m little body of words out that you can Dump out on the pages, and then hopefully you can assimilate, certain imagery to sort of support that thought so people can kinda see the picture and then read the words and kind of start to put together an understanding of, one aspect of design that, I feel is important in how I try to use it in the work. But, I really enjoy that, trying to put words together and trying to explain, we all love pretty pictures, and we're flooded at, like, no, maybe no other time in history. We, on our phones, we can just, there it is, we can just death scroll all day long, and all the people that we follow, the designers, the architects, the artists, all these makers, and everybody's putting all these images on there. And it's great, but it's also a little draining, and it's, and it also is a little laborious. And I kinda wanted to say-There's something behind in, at least in my Work. There's a whole world of ideas behind every single one of those little glossy pictures that together create what you see. I wanted to try to explain it. I just, I wanted to, see if I could get words on paper that would resonate and make sense. And it's fine if you just wanna flip through the book and look at the glossy pictures. That's totally fine. But I think if you I wanted to write a book that would reward people for slowing down and taking the time to actually try to maybe have a deeper understanding of what's behind all those, that amazing photography that, so many genius, artistic people have taken of our work that makes the work look, in many cases, I think, better than it might actually be.

ALEX
Love it. In preparing a little bit, for this discussion, I actually just wrote some notes down, and one of the things that I wrote down that I have to tell you because I think it will, feed into what you just said. I thought that the descriptions you gave there were a more honest way of communicating a product. 'Cause I've said to some potential clients, for better or worse, I guess, that I don't think that they should actually hire me specifically for just the pretty pictures that they can find. It's really easy to see that end outcome, but that's not actually why I think or what I think that I am best at. I think what I'm best at is the And what I think you do in this book really well is articulating the process that makes that product. And it's more so hire me because of the process, the intention, those types of things. Because that pretty picture is somebody else's pretty picture. Yeah. By definition, it shouldn't be yours. That's right. And that's a really hard thing because I think in today's day and age, like you said, with all those pictures, people see that picture and go, "I want that, but for me." And it's like, well, that for you is inherently not that, so we gotta start from scratch. Therefore, the process, the story, those things that I think you do a really great job at articulating in the book.

JEFF
Oh, thank you. I'm glad that you got all that out of it. I think you might be one of one in that category, but, maybe if it worked that way for you, maybe it'll work that way for some other people. It's only been out in the world for about four weeks, maybe almost five weeks now, so, I'm excited. People say, "are you so proud of the book?" And I mean, I am, I'm proud of the work. I think, the book feels more like a relief, Than anything. I'm just glad it's it's done. I thought, this is our second book, and I've done a book before. I know what it's like, and so I thought naively that it would be easier in some ways. And it turned out that it took me twice as long, and I think cost three times more than the first book. So I think But I think the reasons for some of that was I learned so much doing the first book, and I wanted the second book to be, even better but also a little different.And, like most things with me, a little different, turns out to be a whole other journey entirely.

ALEX
Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you very much for the time. If you're ever in Colorado, I'd love to show you around, introduce you to. There's more than a few people I think you would resonate really well with,

JEFF
Here. Well, I, I'll make this really simple. Throw me a project. That the recipe for success

ALEX
And I'll be right there I'll show up, no questions asked. You got it. You got it.

JEFF
I love working in, I love working out west. We've, we just finished one in Idaho. And, we've worked in Montana, Nevada, Colorado. We've got a new one that we just got started last month in, Wyoming. I just love it out there. Great people, beautiful scenery. It just, really makes my soul happy to get out there. I can absolutely see why so many people love living out there.

ALEX
Yeah. It's, not the hardest sell, admittedly.

JEFF
You got skiing, and fishing, and the mountains, and We were, I was 60 years old and not that many, new things coming along when you're 60, you've, and you've traveled. And in one day, I did three things that I'd never done before in my entire life. And we were out there in, Wyoming, and I saw a geyser And in the morning, I almost got ran over by a bison or a buffalo, whatever the, that thing was on the highway. And then that, on the way back, and then that evening we went to, a rodeo. There you go. And I'd never been to a rodeo before. And I was like, "Good grief, man. This is like a banner day." It was amazing.

ALEX
Yeah. And something that's really, I think, hidden within the, the fabric of Colorado is the people as well. Like, obviously, we have the Aspen, we have the Telluride, but then there's, it's almost like California in some ways where there's just so much innovation going on that you have so many incredibly intelligent, cerebral people that, make those things possible that exist amongst the rest of everything else, that there's just so many interesting conversations to be had. People from like all walks of life. I mean, we joke around here that, if somebody went to Boulder High, still works here, th they're a rare gem, to find that person. It's a dime a dozen. Everyone else has some kind of unique story that's always adding to the what Colorado is at the same time. Yeah. So no, it's a unique place and having lived in Well, New Zealand was very similar in some ways, but More transient than anything. I'm a little biased, but not afraid to admit it. It's a good place.

JEFF
Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I really enjoyed talking. Thanks for your time and your thoughtful questions and really appreciate, the depth, of you and, how you approach things. I know your clients are very, lucky to be able to work with such a thoughtful person, and I'm sure the designers and architects you get to work with out there, love working with you too.

ALEX
I appreciate that. And I was just gonna ask you what design trends you like, at first, and I figured we'd dive deeper than that. I say that completely comical. I saw you talk about that on another episode actually. Well, I have to admit. You had a quote in your episode with Brad Leavitt that I have a group chat with a bunch of builders and trade people, and I sent it out to every single one of them. I'm like, "This might be the greatest line I have ever heard in my entire career."

JEFF
Oh my gosh. What was that?

ALEX
I've j that you've joked with clients and said that, "If I saved you money

JEFF
I

ALEX
Didn't mean to I didn't mean to." I'm like, that's the

JEFF
Most honest

ALEX
Words I've ever heard.

JEFF
I tell everybody the same thing right off the bat. I say, "Look." When they start talking about budgets, I say, "Look, I got way more ideas than you got money." I love it. So, and if I ever save you a nickel, I didn't mean to.

ALEX
Hey, at least you're managing that

JEFF
Expectation from the get-go. And then, they don't talk to me about budgets anymore. Yeah,

ALEX
I gotta try that. We'll see if it works.

JEFF
Yeah, absolutely.

ALEX
Well, hey, I appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of your day. And hopefully we'll have some reason to connect again in the future.

JEFF
Totally. Thanks, man. Have a good one.

ALEX
Same. Bye-bye.

JEFF
Bye-bye.