ALEX
Did you set this up on your own or did you have somebody help you?

HARVEY
I actually did it all on my own.

ALEX
Awesome.

HARVEY
You could probably figure out how to drive my car too.

ALEX
I don't know about that.

HARVEY
I had to fill it for the first time with gas, and I had to call my wife.

ALEX
Oh, it's a hybrid?

HARVEY
It's a hybrid.

ALEX
Did you at least find out where the filler is?

HARVEY
I had to call my wife.

ALEX
Well, that's a humbling experience.

HARVEY
It basically has every control hidden in a place where you would least expect it.

ALEX
That sounds stressful. I was even looking at a newer one, like the Rivian, and I was like, I think it would take me a month to figure out how to use all this stuff.

HARVEY
Yeah. I don't even know if I would in the end. They got the lowest Consumer Reports rating of all cars, and I asked a Rivian owner why that's true, and he said when it's delivered, it has all sorts of little stupid things wrong with it. Like the head stuff is falling out, and some molding isn't there. Just small quality control. He said once you get past that, it's a good car, but it takes seven weeks to get an appointment, and so that's why it's getting such bad reviews.

ALEX
I believe it. I think that's also just the plight of smaller businesses. Because of all the tariff stuff, people are like, why don't they produce this car in the United States? And they're like, well, to put it into the assembly line, just the process is like $2 billion worth of investment. I'd have to imagine, I know Rivian has good funding, but that's got to represent a massive chunk.

HARVEY
Oh, it's going to be crazy. Everything's going to change for a while. And I'm not big on consumerism, so in some ways I think that's good.

ALEX
I agree. But yeah, it's definitely going to raise the prices on stuff. Well, you're not big on consumerism. How's that relate then to the building industry?

HARVEY
That's a tough one.

ALEX
That's got to be a little bit of a conflict. I could imagine there's conflicting moments with that.

HARVEY
I live in a 1,000 square foot cabin.

ALEX
Yeah. I'm also though guessing that most of our clients do not. Okay, well, I think I said this to you in the email, but the initiative or the idea behind this podcast is, and I'd be curious to know if you agree with this or not, but oftentimes I feel like I'm hired to be the expert on something, but very rarely am I actually asked explicitly for that expert opinion. And I think that's something the industry as a whole can do a little bit of a better job at, actually facilitating expert opinions from start to finish down the chain. I think that goes from the head architect all the way down to the person sweeping floors, because there's value to be brought there. The analogy I gave to somebody else when explaining it: if I was just to ask you, hey, what advice would you give a person you don't have a business relationship with, but they're trying to build a home? And you're like, hey, I see this mistake made all the time. Don't make this mistake. That's kind of the idea of it. The unfiltered expert opinion of, this is what our experience has caused us to learn over time.

HARVEY
Well, you brought up like three different issues there, so I'll address them one at a time.

ALEX
Fair. Go for it.

HARVEY
People listening to us as professionals: in the past 30 years that I've been working, there's been less and less respect for professionals. And I'm not just talking about architects, but doctors, lawyers. I think the internet has a lot to do with it, when you can go online and try to diagnose yourself. You go into the doctor's office thinking you know a lot more. You've watched a lot of advertisements on TV about what you should be asking your doctor for. And the same's been true in architecture, where there's HGTV, and they get a lot of information on process that doesn't really even exist. But they think they know about it.

And even the building departments have very little respect for professionals anymore. It used to be that we would do drawings, the structural engineers would do drawings, and the building department had rubber stamps and they would say, make sure you do this and that and that. They would hit it with like ten different stamps and approve it, because they figured you knew what you were doing and all was good. Now the building departments comb through our drawings. They have all sorts of comments that don't make sense. And in some ways I feel like they're taking the liability and the professionalism away from us. They know better, then they're the professionals and we're no longer the professionals. So I think we've been losing respect across the board: from the clients, the industry, the cities, the counties. It's a big problem. What was the other half of your question?

ALEX
Well, I think it naturally leads into this: when you're losing respect, why aren't you then being asked explicitly to provide that expert opinion?

HARVEY
I think that when they do ask and you give your expert opinion, I don't think they trust it as much as they used to. We're talking about communication in this podcast, and there's a lot that's going on where information is communicated, but it's not listened to. And so you might say to them that the new energy code is going to make the house more expensive than if you had built it two years ago, but they're not really listening and understanding that, yeah, that might add $100,000. And if you told them it would add $100,000, they would think that they could beat the system. You know, there is a Lego block system that they make in Wyoming that I can use, and it's going to save me a lot of money.

ALEX
Yeah. Well, the one I always hear is, oh, this anywhere else in the country would cost $100,000. Like, no, that's just not true. And also, we aren't in that part of the country to begin with.

HARVEY
That's because the people in Waco, Texas have this TV show that everybody's watching, that doesn't cost anything.

ALEX
Yes. Magic numbers.

HARVEY
Well, yeah, I'm sure a lot of the stuff is donated by Home Depot and stuff like that. And they're not charging for their time, and so the prices are meaningless. But even that aside, people really feel like they have enough information that if they work hard and do a lot of research, they can beat the system.

ALEX
Yeah. Like you referred to the TV shows. There was a period in time I remember when HGTV dominated the television. It was probably one of the most watched channels, and it was making the process of building something that was previously perceived as unattainable to the average person, like a really nice high-end product, look like it could easily be done. It made things that are inherently very complicated appear simple. And that's such a disservice to people, I think, to begin with.

But oftentimes I don't think the industry's always done itself favors either, and I'll say specifically the contracting side of things. There was a period in time, during the Wild West boom times, especially out here, where contractors were doing the cliché change order after change order, blowing budgets, or violating trust law or whatever it is. And because of that, there was a natural element of distrust as a result. But then when you also devalue what they were doing to begin with, it makes it really, really hard to come to the table and have honest conversations that are intended to serve the client in the end. In order for me to communicate effectively with a client, they have to trust me. If they don't trust me, I might as well just be talking to a brick wall.

And so I think the role the industry has to take responsibility for is educating potential clients, people that are interested in going through this incredibly stressful, complicated process, educating them a little bit on that, but also then really focusing on that delivery as a whole. Because the more the industry delivers, the more that trust is going to be brought back, and the easier it's going to be for us to provide that expert opinion.

HARVEY
We have not had really any experience with contractors being real shysters. And maybe that's because we're in Boulder County and there's just so much competition, there's no room for that. We have worked with contractors who just don't have the abilities that they should have. They're just not competent enough, and no matter how hard they try, they can't do it. But probably the most common scenario is contractors who are trying to be optimistic and say, you know, if we really put our mind to it, maybe we can get it done for this price and by this deadline. And it's just an unrealistic optimism. You don't want to fault them for it, but it is problematic because it sets unrealistic expectations.

ALEX
Yeah. It's a position that I've had countless conversations about, because I've looked at prints and gone through pricing, and then I see that end number and I'm like, oh wow, that's a big number. And so then I'm fascinated by the fact that I have this inclination to be like, well, where can we sharpen the pencil a little bit here? And then every time I do it I go, why did I just do that? Because if I thought it cost that to begin with, I would've done those numbers. But you're trying to, you know, it's just good business to give people what they want. And if they like the numbers, that's a lot easier of a conversation than if they don't.

I think the challenge is, say that set of numbers comes out and it's not what the client wants. It has to be a cohesive conversation with the design team, or else it becomes, hey, do we trust the expert opinion of the contractor who gave these numbers? If that question's being answered by the designer already being like, yes, those are the numbers, it's all open book, we have no reason not to trust those numbers. We just need to start coming up with alternative solutions that adjust scope to get you where you want to be, as opposed to approaching it any other way. It's a really, really difficult position that I don't think I've solved the best way to approach yet.

HARVEY
Trust is key. As you said, it's all about trust, and how you get clients to trust you in an environment where the professionalism doesn't have the clout that it used to have is you have to, A, get them to like you, and B, have them understand that you actually know what you're talking about. So we try to do things like take our new clients out for dinner before we even start the process and get to know each other better, so we're not an unknown.

And from a designer's point of view, there are comments that we can make that would be helpful, such as: you don't need that large of a house. And, trust me, because we can design a better small house than a large house. It's going to work for you better ergonomically, lifestyle-wise, socially. Your kids aren't hidden away in some corner of the house. That is where we really wish we had some trust, because people don't believe us. It's like, well, the realtor said that I need to max out my square footage, and I really want this big house and I want all these rooms and bathrooms, but I can't afford it. And it's like, well, this is a dilemma here. And then the contractor's like, well, you can't afford it. And we're saying, you know, I've got a solution here for you. No, we don't want to do that.

So it's really difficult. If they trusted us and said, okay, we believe you that we can live really beautifully and comfortably in a 3,000 square foot house, which in my opinion is huge. I've never lived in a house that large in my entire life. The largest house I've ever lived in is 2,400 square feet. And I had a good life.

ALEX
Yeah. I mean, especially around here. Do you know what the average house size is in Boulder?

HARVEY
I don't, but there's a lot of small houses. The average new house size, I would bet, is over 3,000 square feet.

ALEX
I'd say it's over 3,500 square feet.

HARVEY
And our average house size is probably over 4,000 square feet. It's a dilemma with a solution, and you talked about communication and trust. As a team, if we could communicate to them that we can do something, but they have to make compromises. People don't compromise much anymore.

ALEX
No. It's also decision fatigue. The amount of decisions people make. Oftentimes I'll see the compromise on a square foot on the left corner of a bedroom on the side of a house, as opposed to, no, we need to affect how many bathrooms are here, or the kitchen cabinet allowance and stuff like that. And people want what they want, which is a good thing. I think that's probably really crucial for this industry. But at the same point in time, a willingness to understand what is in their best interest versus just unrealistic is really important.

I'd be interested, because how long has HMH been in business?

HARVEY
36 years.

ALEX
Over those 36 years, I'd have to assume that the methods of communication have changed dramatically. Would you say that the topics you're describing here have also changed, in line with the development of social media and stuff like that?

HARVEY
Yeah. The biggest difference is that, let's say 30-some years ago I did a pop top, and the pop top cost $60,000, and maybe they were making $40,000 a year in their income. So it was one and a half years of income for the pop top. Let's say now that same pop top costs $600,000, and maybe they're making $120,000 a year. So that's five-plus years of income. So the relationship has changed. The pain has changed. And so the stress has changed. I think it was a lot less stressful before.

And also the technology of building was much easier. The codes were 90% fewer. A window didn't cost much to put in. And so now just deciding what window company to pick can drive a client crazy, whereas before it really didn't matter that much. So the whole process has become way more complicated and more stressful for the clients, and actually more difficult to build too. Just making it energy efficient is so much more difficult than what we used to do 30 years ago.

ALEX
Yeah. You and I talked about this before we started recording, that even just between the 2024 energy code and prior, it's a different product. It can't be compared directly, because you have to approach it a completely different way. One of the projects we have going on right now together is a double stud construction method. You would only pursue that looking for a very, very high level of efficiency before the new code came out. But now, in a retrofit application, it actually brings a value point, becomes part of the conversation. Very different, and the assumption has to be that there's a different design approach required as a result of that. There's different cost figures as a result of that. There's probably different qualifications from your contractor required as a result of that.

HARVEY
Oh, definitely.

ALEX
And communicating what that means to a client is not just one or two sentences. It's a lot of information for people to digest. And I wonder a little bit, especially in today's day and age where there's so much information out there, which I think is a great thing, I never want to put a negative connotation on information. But I've been in multiple positions where I wonder if I'm giving the client too much to process right now, to where there's not a realistic expectation that they're going to completely understand everything within the context that they should, as opposed to delivering key points of information that really set them up for success. Like, hey, if you can figure out what you think about this, these next decisions are going to be easier for you, but you don't need to approach them right now. That decision fatigue I think is inevitable. But when you can go and look up different codes, different building systems, different this, I know a lot of my clients do that for themselves. It becomes difficult to then have that conversation.

HARVEY
Yeah. The clients are driving themselves crazy going online looking up everything and becoming experts on every aspect of their building, but not really knowing what they're looking at. And so they come out and say, hey, you know, the nailing pattern on the sheathing is wrong. And it's like, well, it's not exactly right, but it's pretty damn good, you know? And they're freaking out about the nailing pattern, and so then we have to call out a rep, and the rep has to come out and go, no, this nailing pattern is fine. And that has taken time and money and cost, and had the owner not gotten involved, the house would've been perfectly fine, as it was determined after all that anyway. So these things are happening more and more.

And on the other end, people are trying to beat the system. We have a house right now, I sent an email about this this morning, where we have a tile on pedestal deck on the house, and the contractor's hired a big box flooring store to do this pedestal system on the deck, and the flooring store is saying the way the architect wants to do it isn't possible. But they don't know anything about the system. Had they hired a subcontractor who actually specializes in doing that, they would've said, oh yeah, no problem. It costs more, but the big box stores don't know what they're doing. And that's an example of trying to beat the system.

ALEX
Yeah. Which is, again, a commentary on rising prices, trying to get the same outcome for less. It's a position that I actually empathize with, for the average customer.

HARVEY
Absolutely. I would probably do the same.

ALEX
Yeah. It's hard being told that this thing you're dreaming of, probably one of the biggest investments of your lifetime, you actually can't have, despite it representing 90% of your expendable income.

HARVEY
The dreaming part is significant, because there has been a lot of pressure for people of means, or some means, to get the house of their dreams. And I don't know if it's like, when you're a kid, it's, oh, you're a princess, someday you're going to have the house of your dreams. It puts this thing in your brain, and all of a sudden you're doing a house and you start going kind of crazy about it. Oh my God, I've got to get the house of my dreams. I can't compromise on anything, because this is my one shot. And it's not your one shot, and you don't have to have everything for it to be the house of your dreams. I mean, my fireplace surround in my condo is paint. I'm still here.

ALEX
Yeah. You smile just as much throughout the course of the day whether or not that's paint or stone. I completely understand. I think that's also just a commentary on the American approach to building. The square footage number is such a part of the conversation, as opposed to what is value. There's the experience side of things. Like we said, how many bathrooms is not really a thing.

HARVEY
Yeah. If somebody says, I've got 1.6 million, which seems to be a fairly common number now in Boulder, and then we really kill ourselves to get a house built for 1.6 million, it really comes in over 2 million. I could do a fantastic house for 1.6 million if you left me to it. There's no difficulty there whatsoever.

ALEX
A question I've been trying to ask clients in order to understand their approach to things is: how do they perceive value? I think that's an easy question to answer for me, at least on a build, but that's also because I'm in it. I look at value as being craftsmanship and well-thought-out, intentional design. I value those two things over square footage, over so many other things in a home. Most people I don't think can just tell me that without putting some more thought into it, or me maybe contextualizing it. I'm like, hey, do you value the fourth bathroom? Or do you value there being a bathroom that is intended for you to exist within it how you operate on a day-to-day basis, that makes you feel a certain way? Some people care about that, some people don't. But you should know that and communicate that with us and the designer up front, as opposed to post facto once everything's done.

The other part of that is the whole cliché project management triangle: cost, speed, quality. Pick two, not three. Setting that expectation ahead of time. So I try to tell people, if you want to choose more at some point, there's going to be a calculation that has to be done. Are we doing it with quality? Are we doing it fast? Because if that's the assumption, cost goes up. If you want to save money, we have to go down on those other two. And even despite communicating that, oftentimes people's end expectations unfortunately don't always align with it. They still want all of it.

HARVEY
They don't listen. They don't hear it. They might hear it: okay, I can't have all three, but maybe if I try hard, I can. I think that's what they're thinking in their head.

So where do they get it from? I think, if I'm thinking about building a house, I probably go buy some magazines. Maybe I've been getting Dwell or Luxe or something like that already, because I knew I was interested. And you start seeing all these images and you go, okay, this is defining what good living is about. And it has this cool metal steel staircase, and the staircase has glass handrails, and there's a big fireplace, and this really wonderful tile floor. You start making a list of all the things that you see. But the stuff you're seeing in the magazines is a $1,000-a-square-foot house.

ALEX
Yeah. And it's being presented as normal.

HARVEY
It's being presented as normal. And if you don't get this, then somehow you're a loser. That's how it's being presented.

ALEX
You mentioned in our emails before this the roles of communication, and I think it relates to what you're talking about. Something I'm trying to work on within the company is helping people to understand that, yes, I'm a builder, but I don't want people to look at my first role for them as being a builder. It should be that I'm an advocate for you as my client. It just happens to be that the way I do that is by building. And I think the same thing could be said for good designers. If clients can look at it that way, they're going to be like, well, hey, they're actually trying to advocate for my best interest, as opposed to just designing something extravagant, and it really changes the tone of the conversations. I'd be interested to hear what you think, especially as the role of the modern day builder has changed a lot over the last 10, 15 years. Where do you see those roles being most successful?

HARVEY
I hate to say this, but I think that design build is becoming more popular for that reason. They feel that if it's one company, then they can have more control over it than having these two entities that they have to coordinate, or maybe these two entities aren't agreeing on things. And for some reason, in the past five years, design build has become much more popular from a client's point of view. At least that's how I feel.

On the other hand, if I were to say, I work always with Fernhill. We're a design build team. You can hire us, and we could even do one contract if you wanted to, or we could do two contracts. Doesn't matter. We're a team. They'll come and say, you know, I found this contractor who's a lot less expensive.

ALEX
Yeah, 100%. It's so true. I'd be interested to hear what you think about this, because I was recently asked by a client. There was a period in time when I was debating doing design build, and frankly, it was also just trying to use our assets. I do think that there are amazing independent architecture firms, amazing independent builders, amazing design build firms. There's also the other end of that spectrum as well. And I'm not quite sure if it has to be this one-is-better-than-the-other thing. I do think that oftentimes, if you look at individual fits, a lot of times certain clients might be a better fit for a design build firm. My clients, the people that I work with, I don't think that's necessarily what they're looking for. But they are looking for a cohesive approach between the design and build team. So in some questions I've gotten regarding it before, I actually think that every client should approach it as a design build team from the beginning.

HARVEY
That's what we tell them. Absolutely.

ALEX
But there's some power in actually having the checks and balances.

HARVEY
Absolutely.

ALEX
Adam Wagoner just asked me this question: what do I look for in an architecture firm, if I was to be asked? And I said, someone that's always willing to come to the table and simply have those hard conversations that are inevitable in any sized construction project. And having a tone or a sense of approach where the only thing we care about at the end of it is coming up with the best solution for our client. There are no egos, there's none of this. Because I'm sure that both of us have been a part of conversations where that wasn't the case. It was more finger-pointing: oh, this is them, this is that. It doesn't serve the client in the end, ever.

I think back to when my grandfather was building. My grandfather was a carpenter with a tool belt on. He wasn't using management software. He didn't have a formalized education. That's not the case now, especially in the higher end markets of Boulder. Builders are more sophisticated, as they have to be. And I think that's changed the roles, the methods of communication between the client and the builder specifically. Do you think that's changed the method of communication by the design team as well?

HARVEY
No, I don't think so. And that might not be the right answer. What we're trying to do hasn't changed in 2,000 years. And so, yeah, we do have computers and we do have tools, but basically, as you said, we're trying to come up with the best product for the price, budget, program, site, et cetera.

But we talk about it a lot in the office, how we should change, because it's become much more complicated than it used to be. One of the things that we talked about and actually have recently implemented: we used to provide options for clients. Here's three solutions to this situation. We would talk about the pros and cons of each and then try to get them to say which one they like the most. What we found is that there are so many decisions for owners to make on new houses now that that just adds another layer of decisions. So what we've implemented now is we go through that process, pick our favorite, and present that to the client, to simplify the situation for them. And that helps a little bit more with the professionalism too, because then they think that we know what we're presenting, rather than, here's three options, we could pick any of them. That doesn't make us look as professional. So we do have to change how we're doing things because of the complexity now. But architecture really, besides the fact that we draw on the computer rather than by hand, hasn't changed a whole lot.

ALEX
At the end of every project, I try to make sure that I'm doing an interview with not only the client, but also the designer. How'd it go? I want all the feedback, because without that feedback, you can't improve. The number one thing I'm told by the client, because one of the questions I ask is, what were you most surprised by? Their answer is almost always that they weren't aware how much of their time this process was going to take.

HARVEY
No, they had no idea.

ALEX
And I thought about that so much. A really interesting analogy was given to me about Ferrari. Ferrari is this built brand. It's incredible. Most Ferraris that are sold are sold as a set, the interior selections are already made. You can customize it, but nobody goes into a modern-day Ferrari and goes, hey, this gear shifter, I want to change that out. They go, hey, because it's a Ferrari, I'm good. That's it. And they enjoy it. All they're doing from that moment on is pushing the gas pedal and enjoying their Ferrari. And I think there's some real merit to that experience, as opposed to countless hours determining each of these things.

HARVEY
And as you said, people don't have time now. And so, for our frame: do you like this knob or that knob? It's too much. Well, first of all, 30 years ago, there was only one lighting company. It was Lightolier. It's like, you like this Lightolier? That was it. And there was one good knob, Baldwin. And so the selection was very limited and very easy. There was only one good doorknob. There was only one good light fixture. So it was a lot easier. Now there's endless everything. And then everything's knocked off in China for one-tenth the price too, and you can get that, so that's a whole other level of decision-making.

ALEX
I had a client maybe a month or so ago. She was messaging me all this stuff about fire methods, for vented roof assemblies and things like that. Sent me like 30 different things at 2:00 a.m. And I go, hey, how about let me do a little bit of organization here, and we can have a conversation if you're interested in that. And she goes, oh, thanks. I got sucked in by the algorithm. And I thought about that. She probably Googled fire prevention and roof assemblies, and then her social media feed was bombarding her with everything from all over the world. And she has no idea, by her own admission. It's a difficult spot to be in.

HARVEY
But let me go back to something you said a while ago. That you communicate a lot of information, but maybe you're communicating too much. I think that one can't communicate too much, but you have to space out the communication. Because if you tell them too much in one sitting, they stop hearing it. They just get overload. So somehow we need to say, okay, at the very early stages, at the first meeting, this needs to be communicated, second this, and so on and so forth. And then what we don't do enough of, architects and contractors, is reiterate. Say, okay, remember we told you that at this stage this is going to happen? Well, in two weeks it's going to happen. Not the day of, but in two weeks we're going to be in this location at that time, and these are the things that will be consequences thereof.

And the biggest thing to communicate is to not make last-minute changes. That used to be much easier, because there were fewer things to pick from. If you have a Lightolier fixture, they're not going to change it. But now they go, oh man, I just saw this thing, I want this other light fixture. Or, I found that there's a new TV set that's clear, and I want that. They're constantly finding stuff, and they're putting it into the project. And to communicate that that really slows down and adds cost needs to be said over and over and over again.

ALEX
Yeah, and I think that even ties back into how the building codes have changed so much. There's such pressure to get a permit set submitted, because you want that long lead time, that clock ticking. And when the electrical fixtures have to be a part of that permit set, you probably aren't going through that same process of looking at it from an aesthetics and ergonomics standpoint, as opposed to just getting it in there. Which sucks to say, but everyone's been there. And then you end up having to go back through it all again, and people are like, well, where's this inefficiency? And it's like, well, we wanted the clock ticking, so we prioritized this over that. It's a really complicated and difficult situation to succeed in.

On my side of things, so much of that communication is budget and schedule. Most of my day is spent either staring at Microsoft Project or an Excel spreadsheet. We use a software called Adaptive for our cost plus model, and that basically means that everything that comes in gets sent out through a draw. All the receipts are in a PDF zip file as part of that draw, but everything is also cost coded against the original budgets. In order for us to be accurate with our budgets, we have very detailed cost codes. We use NAHB as a standard, but then we further develop them. I used to break down that full budget in every single draw with every single cost code. That could be like 250 cost codes that people were seeing. And I would get calls, like, what the heck, this number's way over. And it's like, well, that's because of this, and there's that natural nuance that goes along with how a budget progresses throughout the course of a project.

So now what we actually do is break it down by division category for clients, so they can see the larger picture, and tell them, hey, if you have questions about anything here, we will go into as much detail as you want. We probably have way more detail than you will ever need. But we also don't want you stressing about something that isn't a problem. If it's a problem, I will be the first one to come to you and tell you this is going on. But if you're concerned that the cost coding for the WRB went under this as opposed to that, and this caused this number to look this way, but we actually took it from the allowance for the category, I don't think that's beneficial to anyone. It's just overwhelming.

HARVEY
No, I had a very smart client who said to me, I can't remember what the exact number was, but he said, if there's a cost overrun under $1,000, don't tell me about it. I don't want to think about it. I don't want to know about it. I don't want to stress over it. I'm sure you've made the decision for a good reason. That takes away a lot of stress, because most of the problems are in that really low range. And they're like, oh no, what's this? It's like, man, this isn't even worth your time.

So that's something that would be good to communicate with clients: you should have a threshold. We have a 5% contingency, and any item that's under $500 will come out of that contingency, and we won't even tell you about it, because we're making the right decision for you. And that cuts out a lot of emails and stress.

ALEX
And another way of phrasing that is cost too. When everyone, I think both of us, are billing for our time, and we're constantly solving those stressful issues for somebody as opposed to just moving through it quickly, oftentimes you're probably negating the cost savings that was being attempted anyway.

HARVEY
Right, exactly.

ALEX
I think of change order conversations, pricing exercises, where I spend 10, 15 hours trying to go through two things for a $300 savings.

HARVEY
That's crazy. We probably should have just picked one.

ALEX
Well, a question I'm trying to ask everyone is: how do you define a successful project? I think it's a really complicated one that has a lot of nuance to it. But I think there's also some really fun, creative answers to be had. Obviously everyone wants happy clients. That's an easy answer. But for HMH, for Harvey Hine, what is a successful project?

HARVEY
Did Frank Lloyd Wright want happy clients? I don't think so.

ALEX
Okay, we'll call him the exception, not the rule.

HARVEY
Did Mies van der Rohe have a happy client? Farnsworth sued him. So yeah, there are examples of great architects with big egos where happy clients was probably at the bottom of the list. So that's not a given per se. But what we do, we certainly want to have happy clients. What makes clients happy, though, is kind of up for discussion.

I guess the easiest thing would be the client saying, we got what we asked for. And they're happy because they got what they asked for. Does it live great? I don't know. Was it the best thing for them? I don't know. But they got what they wanted. We try to get above that. That's not high enough of a bar for us. What we really want to hear is: this beat my expectations. I never thought it would be this good. I never thought I could live this well. We did a house for an executive in the pharmacy field, and he said, you took a minute and a half off of my morning routine by the way you organized the bathroom. And that's huge for him. So it really varies client to client, what makes them think that the house is better than they ever expected.

And then the highest bar is something that we feel very proud of, because we're the most critical of our own work of anybody. I worked for a fairly famous architect, and somebody asked him in a job interview, what's the best building you ever did? And he thought for a long time, and everybody's waiting. He said, I've never designed a good building in my life. And we're like, ugh. And he said, every time I do a building, all I do is think about how I'm going to do it better the next time. So that's a good attitude: you evaluate what you've done, as successful as it was, and how you can do it better the next time.

But I think a successful project is something that meets many goals, and the environment is one of them. The context of the neighborhood is another. Does it work with the neighborhood in one way or another? The clients, the city. A lot of players involved, so it's complicated.

ALEX
Yeah. Especially when you can only control so much.

HARVEY
You can only control so much. And another thing, a successful project for us is enjoying the relationship with the client. If the client is kind of jerky, it's not a very fun experience, no matter how good the house comes out. It leaves a sour feel. It's like, oh my God, I have to deal with this person again. So if we're smart when we take a job, our number one criterion is: is this a good person to work with? And that to me is actually more important than, is the project going to be successful?

ALEX
Yeah. I was asked what's my ideal project, and I said, I don't know if I have an ideal project, but I do have an ideal client.

HARVEY
Yeah. And I always tell my clients that architecture and construction is a service industry. You want to have a really good house, but you also want to have good service. If you go to a fancy restaurant and the food is great, but the service is terrible, it's a bad experience. But I think it goes the other way too. If you are a waiter and you have a client who's ordering a very fancy meal, but they're real jerks, that's not good either. It goes both directions. So it's a service industry.

ALEX
I'd actually like to dig into that if you don't mind, because it's something I've debated for my company a lot. If it's a service industry, but we're also holding true what we said before about it being so complicated, so many moving pieces, and there's so much, I'll use the word friction, throughout the process that's unavoidable. You're going to go through those ups and downs. But if we look at the Ferrari analogy again, and we just deliver that final product, if we become a product-based industry as opposed to a service, I've wondered if that's a more sustainable approach. But I look at the hindering factor there being that Ferrari has massive brand equity. Everyone wants a Ferrari. Everyone trusts that a Ferrari is going to be such. And in an industry that doesn't have much standardization, I don't know if that's actually a realistic expectation.

HARVEY
HGTV shows that. The clients aren't there, and then they move the bus, and they go, oh, that's our house. It's so fantastic. I don't think that's realistic in my industry. I think then you might as well do spec houses. You can use all your knowledge and capability and do it as well and inexpensively as possible, and then they buy it. That's a viable solution. But most people hire us because they say, we've looked at 100 houses and we don't like any of them. So we're hiring you. If we designed spec houses, maybe they would find a house that they like. So that's another option as well.

ALEX
Interesting. Well, let's circle back, because one thing I forgot to do at the beginning of the podcast is have you introduce yourself and HMH. Mr. Harvey Hine. Who are you? What is HMH? Tell us.

HARVEY
Okay. Well, I am an architect. I've been in business for 36 years in town. My background: I grew up in Vienna, Austria, where I'm leaving to go back to my hometown in two weeks. After graduating in Austria, and I was born in this country, I came back to the States, and it was a very scary proposition for me coming back in the '70s. Boulder was this kind of hippie, happy town, so I decided I could move to Boulder. I didn't even look at the university. I said, this is where I'm going to go to school. So I went to CU, worked for a couple of years after. I knew I had to get my master's, because my education wasn't great at CU. My dad really wanted me to apply to Harvard, which I thought was silly. But to make my dad happy, I applied to Harvard, and miraculously I got in. So I spent three and a half years at Harvard, got my master's. Stayed there, did the yuppie thing in Boston. When we decided to have kids, we came back to Colorado. Worked for the best architect in Colorado for three years, and then opened my own business 36 years ago.

I've taught at multiple universities. We've won over 50 design awards. The company's always about ten people. We just find that we can do the best service and best design at that size. Smaller, we have fewer capabilities, and larger, it just becomes more to manage. So we're always about the same size.

ALEX
Also, you have Month of Modern.

HARVEY
We have Month of Modern. We run a nonprofit, and nobody really owns a nonprofit, but we run it, which provides, in the month of September, multiple events for the community about design. There are a number of volunteers and a number of sponsors. So while we organize it, it does not belong to us. It belongs to everybody involved, and I think we have like 50 sponsors in a year. It's a wonderful thing to do, and we're very proud of it.

ALEX
Fantastic. How was it? I've been interviewed a bunch before, but I haven't been the interviewer.

HARVEY
Yeah, it's hard.

ALEX
It is hard. But luckily Adam Wagoner was nice enough to do the first one with me. At one point in time, I actually had to give him a hard time, because I'm like, I'm supposed to be interviewing you, and you're in your podcast mode and now asking me all the questions. People don't need to hear what I have to say.

HARVEY
Well, it can go both ways.

ALEX
Yeah. I appreciate it.

HARVEY
Thanks for doing that. I hope it comes out well.

ALEX
I think it will.